The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Evangelical Universalist Isolation?

Evangelical Universalism
#29

But keep in mind that most believers have been taught that heresy of any kind is damnable. They aren’t taught any distinction between error and the sin of heresy; the latter of which I quite agree is damnable. (Even if no more hopelessly damnable than any other sin. But it’s just as quasi-permanently damnable as any other sin, too, so long as it is impenitently held to and fondled.)

Whereas, I know many hardcore universalists (mainly Ultra-Us) have become universalists precisely because they trusted so hard in the finished work of Christ. :slight_smile:

Personally, I would recommend trusting in Christ personally, not primarily in the work of Christ (finished or otherwise). George MacDonald had some strong things to say about that, too.

But anyway, I think you’re right that they worry people will be led to not accept God’s salvation from sin and so be hopelessly lost from Christ.

Thanks, FirU. Keep us updated!

#30

I’ve had a similar, though less “public” experience than you have Sherman. I began sharing the book “Hope Beyond Hell” with a few selected individuals a couple of years ago, including a copy that for whatever reason never found its way to the pastor until one of the friends I’d shared it with brought up some good points from it in our Sunday morning class. The pastor never discussed it with me personally, even though I’d left him a note inviting him to do precisely that. What this led to was a four week sermon series on Universalism and why it couldn’t possibly be right or true. Normally, this pastor speaks with a lot of wisdom, but this sermon series, particularly the first installment, was some of the worst, most unbelievably blind, inconsistent (and rife with so many logical fallacies, including appeals to emotion, which he accused universalists of doing in the same sermon!) “stuff” I’ve ever heard come out of his mouth. I doubt he even read the book. It was clear from the sermon(s) that his mind was made up.

We’ve stayed at the church, mainly because we’ve been there so long and have so many otherwise good relationships, but we have kept very quiet about our views since.

I lost a lot of respect for our pastor that day (and month) and I have not regained much of it. He’s a great guy and you can tell he loves God, but he is so blinded on this it boggles the mind.

#31

Hi Mel and thanks for sharing. For several months as I was studying scripture concerning UR and Hell, I was openly sharing my research with others whom I respected in the hopes that if I was getting off track that God would use someone to show me the error in my interpretation of scripture or logic. The most common response I got was indifference; most Christians, sadly so, just do not study scripture; and fewer still ever read or study material that is outside of their traditional beliefs.

The second most common response I heard was some expression of fear, for example: “Well, if all are saved, then why should anyone follow Jesus?” or “If all are saved, won’t that negatively effect missions giving?” or “If all are saved, then why evangelize?” or “If you teach that all are saved then won’t people just continue to sin?” or “If allow this discussed openly then it will cause division in the church.”

Scripture says that God does not give us a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power, love, and sound thinking. Yet when the subject of Jesus really being the savior of all humanity comes up, many believers react setting aside love and reason and irrationally responding in fear and even hostility. The Thesselonians responded the same way when Paul presented the Gospel to them. They listened a little while, but quickly rejected his message and started attacking him.

I’ve found few people who respond like the Bereans who were open hearted towards Paul, open minded to new information, and diligent to study scripture to see if what Paul shared was correct. Note that they did not study to see if they could Prove Paul wrong, but to see if what he shared was true. They approached scripture with an open mind, open to seeing if what Paul said was true.

Most believers I’ve shared with are indifferent, satisfied with what they believe, and do not care to study anything challenging or new-to-them. The next most numerous response I’ve received are based in irrational fear and quickly devolve into personal attacks of me. I’ve only found a few who are open minded, will invest the time and effort to diligently study scripture, and seriously consider the possibility that Jesus really is the Savior of all humanity. And usually these are people are under 30. It seems that the older a person gets the less open he is to new-to-him concepts. And most established churches are made up of and especially led by people who’s average age is 50 or 60+, people who are set in their beliefs and unwilling, even afraid, to consider something radically new-to-them.

Also, I’m a Charismatic and Charismatics and Pentecostals value personal experience as a source of revelation. And one of the things I’ve run into is believers who rely more on their feelings than upon scripture. They trust their feelings more than their scholarship in scripture. And when I share with such people verifiable scriptural evidence as to why I’ve changed my beliefs, they get nervous inside and attribute that to me teaching something wrong as opposed to recognizing that it could be irrational fear in their own hearts, afraid to have been wrong for so many years, afraid that without the fear of hell many people will just live like they want to, afraid that…

These people also appeal to the many people who have had NDEs and experienced Hell, blindly accepting the testimonies and interpretations of those experiences presented by the Mary Baxters and others who claim such divine revelation. They fail to consider though that some people actually get saved during their NDE, and others get saved soon after their NDE of “hell”.

My son is currently studying the scriptures that Bill Weise quotes as affirming his interpretation of his vision/experience “23 Minutes in Hell”. And my son has found that over 80% of the scriptures this guy quotes as support for his interpretation of his experience have absolutely nothing to do with punishment in the afterlife, and the other 20% mostly speak of temporal punishment of sin. Weise reads Hell “INTO” all of these scriptures. He uses his vision as a lense through which he interprets scripture, instead of using scripture as a lense through which to interpret his vision.

Well, I’ve ranted enough for now. I suppose I’m just a little ticked today at some of the false accusations and negative responses of people whom I assumed would not act so irrationally and negatively towards me. And I wanted to vent a little. These people are 55+ and almost ignorant concerning scripture, but they’ve declared me a heretic, prideful, and a deceiver, using scripture for my own personal gain - as if coming to believe UR and openly confess such has gotten me anything but trouble. Well, thanks for listening.

Blessings,
Sherman

#32

I totally hear you, Sherman. The typical reactions are a very frustrating experience, to be sure. I’ve encountered all of the ones you’ve mentioned. And you’re absolutely right; way too few believers actually study scriptures. Most are content to be 100% confident in what their pastor tells them, and being a Berean (when it goes against the tide) is generally frowned upon.

Was the protestant reformation for nothing? Sheesh… :confused:

#33

I can’t help feeling this is something like what Paul ran up against when he was trying to convince the Jewish Christians that the Gentiles didn’t need to become Jewish to be Christian. He was most persecuted by Christian Jews.

Sonia

#34

As an agnostic I find the reply of ‘why should we bother to spread the good news or be good ourselves etc… if everyone will be saved anyway’ astonishing. To me it reveals the hearts of these people, their true nature so to speak, which is - we are only doing this Christianity thing for our own benefit - if there is no palpable difference between us and those non-christians over there then why are we bothering? What do they think the ‘especially of believers’ passage means?. What happened to God’s laws being written on the heart i.e. a true repentance and a turning away from former sin? If one is only being righteous because one feels one has to be then surely that is a form of trying to be righteous under the external law - where’s the difference to the Pharisees?

That attitude speaks more of bending the knee in subjugation and fear of reprisal than in love of God don’t you think?

#35

Jeff, that’s a very good point; thanks for pointing it out. “If all are ultimately saved by Grace then why be good” reveals that the primary or only reason the person is good is to be saved. Thus deep down inside to them salvation is dependant upon their goodness, not upon Grace.

And the statement “If all are ultimately saved by Grace then why evangelize”, reveals that without the threat of Hell for others, then a person wouldn’t have any motivation to share to share the gospel. Of course, the reality is that most Christians do not share the traditional “gospel” anyhow. Less than 10% have shared the gospel in the last year with any unbeliever. So this is really a non-issue, and most people who raise this question are not active in sharing the traditional bad news.

Maybe the reason so few Christians share their faith is because deep down inside they realize that the traditional message is not “Good News” at all, but is really “Bad News” for most of humanity. “God loves you, but if you do not put your faith in Him and repent from sin He will burn you forever in Hell; it’s a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God!” The traditional message is actually very tyranical. It sounds like something Saddam Hussein might say; “If you’re loyal to me I’ll reward you hansomely, but if not, well it’s torture for you; in my book that’s what you really deserve anyhow!” “You’re wicked and evil to the core, nothing good about you at all, worthless, a worm only fit for endless torture! But you know, God is so good that He loves you anyhow, you worthless maggot.”

It’s no wonder why most (90%+) Christians rarely, if ever, share the traditional so-called “good news”!

#36

I agree–excellent point, Jeff, and nice reply, Sherman.

In my circles, the question would be “If all are ultimately saved, why bother accepting Christ?” My church emphasises salvation by grace, with good works resulting from the work of the Spirit in the believer’s life.

The implication of the question is that the person sees salvation as merely a pass to get out of hell. If everyone’s going to get out anyway, why dedicate your life to following Christ? It’s as if the sheep say, “Since we know all the flock is going to end up safe in the fold, so we may as well run off and lose ourselves in the hills.” (In the mean time, we’ll fall off cilffs or into pits, be attacked by predators, be cold and thirsty and hungry …)

The mistake is that, while I’m saying ‘everyone will eventually be saved’, I’m not saying that anyone will just get out automatically, after they ‘do their time.’ As I believe (and some here may disagree), everyone must come to genuine repentance–both from their evil deeds, and from the pride of thinking they can achieve the righteousness of God by their own works (as opposed to the work of God)–and to faith in God.

To say that all will be saved from their sin is a prophecy that looks ahead to their repentance and inclusion in the body and life of Christ. The saved join with God in Christ to carry out the ministry of reconciliation. We become shepherds with Christ, laboring alongside to bring the lost home.

Sonia

#37

The church I was raised in almost exclusively equated salvation with making into heaven. We would not even say that we are now “saved”. Instead we’d say that we are in a “safe condition”. Salvation was not about having a relationship with God, participating in the kingdom of God, or any current benefits. It was all about the “sweet bye-and-bye”, some day seeing Jesus and not going to Hell. There was very little, if any, present reality of relationship with God. And salvation, eventually making it into heaven, was very much dependant upon how one actually lived. I don’t know how many times when discussing salvation with those who believe in “faith only” I’d bring up the scripture that says “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling!”

Of course, when I came to have faith in Christ for salvation for myself, trusting in His sacrifice to cover all my sins, past, present, and future, I came to be excluded from the church of my youth. This exclusion from them was trying but not nearly as trying as the exclusion I’ve experienced through coming to have faith in the sacrifice of Christ for everyone, not just myself. In the first change of faith I moved from a very small exclusive group of believers and was included in a very large exclusive group of believers. But now I’ve moved from a very large “exclusive” group to a very very small “inclusive” group; and everyone in both the small and large “exclusive” groups now reject me to some degree. And the small “inclusive” group I now identify with is so small that there is not a fellowship of them in my area that I know of.

#38

It’s very encouraging reading through this forum, although sad at times to hear people’s accounts of rejection particularly by people who are meant to Christ-like in loving their neighbours and even their enemies.

Anyway, like firedup2000, I’m facing the prospect of “coming out” about my belief in EU. I am weighing up when and how to do it. Like Sonia implied, it’s hard to bottle up the joy :slight_smile:

About 10 years ago I came across universalism, but unfortunately at that time didn’t have the resources to defend it and hence felt I had to “denounce” it to be able to continue in my Evangelical Presbyterian church. Fortunately, about 6 months ago, Luke invited me to watch “Collision” (tentmaker.org/articles/unive … erose.html) which then pointed me to Talbott and Parry’s books.

Now that’s I’ve read the those two books, I want everyone around me to read them too! Some have (e.g. Luke, my brother, my dad & my wife) and I have one or two friends at church, although highly skeptical (which is good), are at least willing to read one book. I think that my best approach will be to ask the leadership to read “The Evangelical Universalist” and see what happens…

Has anyone had any luck with this approach?

#39

There’s been some talk of home churches, which is interesting as I’ve been the host for one for over a year now. This is going to make it particularly tricky if I get excommunicated! :open_mouth:

#40

Hi Alex,

I discovered biblical universalism while I was an unpaid Assemblies of God (AG) minister, and I needed to waive my right to teach universalism or resign from the AG. I searched around for charismatic/Pentecostal churches that would work with me, and I found a regional leader in Vineyard USA who would work with me as long as I wouldn’t get militant about my universalistic eschatology. I also found a couple of other churches with similar values that would work with me.

Perhaps you could confidentially talk to other pastors in your area to see if any would tolerate biblical universalism, before you expose yourself to the possibility of excommunication. I’ll keep you in prayer.

#41

Hi again Alex,

I want to add that I think Parry’s Evangelical Universalist would make a great ice breaker with any pastor. The pastor might or might not agree to read it, but the title itself would begin a conversation that would tell you if that pastor would work with you.

I pray that you can minister as a home group leader while holding an evangelical universalistic eschatology, if that is your vision.

#42

I did finally talk to my pastor on Saturday 9/25/2010. Unfortunately I have been extremely busy and unable to update you until now. Since such a large amount of time has passed since then I thought it would be best to just start a new thread at Out In The Open entitled “Out In The Open”.

I appreciate your interest and would appreciate your prayers for the future.

#43

Sonia,

Thanks for your comment below:

I’m right withya on this.

#44

Sherman,

I like how you put this:

I am very concerned about how I would handle this:

I hope everything works out well for you, especially with your wife, as you had mentioned in previous posts how accepting UR had led to problems. I prayed for you today.

#45

Thanks for your prayers for me firedup. It’s been a challenging, profoundly hurtfuly several months for me since I “came out” as trusting in the salvation of Christ for all humanity, not “only” we who believe. Since childhood I’ve enjoyed being actively involved in local churches, teaching, preaching, prophecying, etc. But I find myself now very isolated and unable to use my gifts and talents due to my faith in Christ for the salvation of others, instead of having faith in Christ for the damnation of “others”.

#46

Firedup2000, I so appreciate how you organized and expressed your thoughts and feelings about isolation. I am experiencing the same spiritual and emotional pressures made worse by having just twice read John Noe’s book, Hell Yes, Hell No, after finally coming (mostly) to terms with my two year theological sea-change to full preterism.

I can’t imagine what a heretic I will be seen as by most of the modern evangelical body and even my family. I’ve given up looking for a Biblically faithful church where I will be safe to continue pursuing answers to lingering questions on these two issues of Preterism and Christ-centered Universalism.

#47

I look at the hell topic topic via Eastern Orthodox theology, with 3 possible outcomes:

Universalism
Annihilation
Isolation

Regardless of outcome, perhaps it’s how humans respond to his all embracing love? Let’s explore this a bit more.

Hell is Heaven experienced differently

Or we can take this view extract from What is Orthodox Hell?

In Universalism in the Orthodox Church, we find these interesting statements:

But as we discuss Annihilationism, we will find

So in reality, my position on hell is a hybrid of that of the Eastern Orthodox and Tiffany Snow’s vision, where their energy **might **become part of the new earth. What counts is how they respond to God’s attempt to save them, by this over powering love in Christ. Hell is Heaven experienced differently, as the Eastern Orthodox express it. Perhaps it is the Dark Night of the Soul of St John of the Cross.

How do we experience God’s love in hell?

or

Or (in the The Mercy of Hell? A Review of The Skeletons in God’s Closet (Part 1))

More on this in the interview Facing the Skeletons in God’s Closet

Notice I like Butler’s position over that of eternal conscious torment. There’s also the experiences of Tiffany Snow, who had a near death experience. She became a contemporary Christian healer and stigma bearer (i.e. in the Old Catholic Church tradition). Here is her perspective on what happens three weeks after death at After Death

Therefore universalism, annihilation and eternal, self-imposed exile, are all humane options (from a human standpoint), on how we response to God’s all embracing love, where God finally becomes “all in all”. And would God know how humans would respond, or do we take some option like Open Theism ?

Or let’s put it this way. A doctor comes to you with a new scientific wonder drug. This drug can put you in an eternal blissful state, and make you exceptionally strong, smart and fast, along with being immune to all diseases. But the drug could also kill you or put you into an internal, imaginary world, where you don’t experience the real reality - perhaps it’s the “real” reality of the Matrix movies, that becomes your new reality. And the doctor might not know if it would work on everyone 100% of the time. Would you take it?

#48

Welcome “dandepriest” to the dark-side of inclusive prêterism aka pantelism. :sunglasses: