Evangelical Universalist Isolation?

[james.goetz]

Hi again Alex,

I want to add that I think Parry’s Evangelical Universalist would make a great ice breaker with any pastor. The pastor might or might not agree to read it, but the title itself would begin a conversation that would tell you if that pastor would work with you.

I pray that you can minister as a home group leader while holding an evangelical universalistic eschatology, if that is your vision.

[firedup2000]

I did finally talk to my pastor on Saturday 9/25/2010. Unfortunately I have been extremely busy and unable to update you until now. Since such a large amount of time has passed since then I thought it would be best to just start a new thread at Out In The Open entitled “Out In The Open”.

I appreciate your interest and would appreciate your prayers for the future.

[firedup2000]

Sonia,

Thanks for your comment below:

The mistake is that, while I’m saying ‘everyone will eventually be saved’, I’m not saying that anyone will just get out automatically, after they ‘do their time.’ As I believe (and some here may disagree), everyone must come to genuine repentance–both from their evil deeds, and from the pride of thinking they can achieve the righteousness of God by their own works (as opposed to the work of God)–and to faith in God.

I’m right withya on this.

[firedup2000]

Sherman,

I like how you put this:

In the first change of faith I moved from a very small exclusive group of believers and was included in a very large exclusive group of believers. But now I’ve moved from a very large “exclusive” group to a very very small “inclusive” group;

I am very concerned about how I would handle this:

… and everyone in both the small and large “exclusive” groups now reject me to some degree. And the small “inclusive” group I now identify with is so small that there is not a fellowship of them in my area that I know of.

I hope everything works out well for you, especially with your wife, as you had mentioned in previous posts how accepting UR had led to problems. I prayed for you today.

[Sherman]

Thanks for your prayers for me firedup. It’s been a challenging, profoundly hurtfuly several months for me since I “came out” as trusting in the salvation of Christ for all humanity, not “only” we who believe. Since childhood I’ve enjoyed being actively involved in local churches, teaching, preaching, prophecying, etc. But I find myself now very isolated and unable to use my gifts and talents due to my faith in Christ for the salvation of others, instead of having faith in Christ for the damnation of “others”.

[dandepriest]

Firedup2000, I so appreciate how you organized and expressed your thoughts and feelings about isolation. I am experiencing the same spiritual and emotional pressures made worse by having just twice read John Noe’s book, Hell Yes, Hell No, after finally coming (mostly) to terms with my two year theological sea-change to full preterism.

I can’t imagine what a heretic I will be seen as by most of the modern evangelical body and even my family. I’ve given up looking for a Biblically faithful church where I will be safe to continue pursuing answers to lingering questions on these two issues of Preterism and Christ-centered Universalism.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

I look at the hell topic topic via Eastern Orthodox theology, with 3 possible outcomes:

Universalism
Annihilation
Isolation

Regardless of outcome, perhaps it’s how humans respond to his all embracing love? Let’s explore this a bit more.

Hell is Heaven experienced differently

The Eastern Orthodox church teaches that heaven and hell are being in God’s presence, which is being with God and seeing God, and that there no such place as where God is not, nor is hell taught in the East as separation from God. One expression of the Eastern teaching is that hell and heaven are being in God’s presence, as this presence is punishment and paradise depending on the person’s spiritual state in that presence. For one who hates God, to be in the presence of God eternally would be the gravest suffering.

Or we can take this view extract from What is Orthodox Hell?

Patristic scholar Archimandrite Irenei (Matthew) Steenberg has described this view as “hell is heaven experienced differently”: God does not retributively punish the damned; the damned experience God as torment because they have rejected, and eternally reject, the divine mercy and love. They cannot tolerate his inescapable presence. God does not actively inflict pain at the Last Judgment; he simply allows the damned to experience the suffering they have freely chosen,…

In Universalism in the Orthodox Church, we find these interesting statements:

The idea as presented by Origen is that since God will be “all in all,” then in eternity there will be no place that God is not. Since “God is love” (1 John 4:8), wrath is not an eternal attribute of God but rather how we experience His love without being pure in heart / righteous. Therefore hell is not viewed as conscious torment inflicted intentionally by God as punishment nor as a withdrawal of God’s presence, but rather as the experience of the unfiltered love of God. For those who have been made righteous, this is a very positive experience. For those who have chosen to reject His love, it is like a consuming fire that causes them suffering. Origen taught that this fire was purifying and that eventually no one would hold out against God’s love. Origen believed that all would eventually be reconciled to God.

Some have stated this by using the analogy of wind: God’s love is like wind constantly blowing in one direction. When we walk in His will, the wind has our back and carries us along. But when we go against His will, we walk against the wind and experience His love as wrath. Thus God is always continually loving, but we are the ones who don’t know what true love is. This can even be observed in human relationships: consider a loved one who hates a family member.

But as we discuss Annihilationism, we will find

Some annihilationists (e.g. Seventh-day Adventists) believe God’s love is scripturally described as an all-consuming fire[2] and that sinful creatures cannot exist in God’s presence.

So in reality, my position on hell is a hybrid of that of the Eastern Orthodox and Tiffany Snow’s vision, where their energy **might **become part of the new earth. What counts is how they respond to God’s attempt to save them, by this over powering love in Christ. Hell is Heaven experienced differently, as the Eastern Orthodox express it. Perhaps it is the Dark Night of the Soul of St John of the Cross.

How do we experience God’s love in hell?

Origen taught that this fire was purifying and that eventually no one would hold out against God’s love. Origen believed that all would eventually be reconciled to God.

or

Some annihilationists (e.g. Seventh-day Adventists) believe God’s love is scripturally described as an all-consuming fire[2] and that sinful creatures cannot exist in God’s presence.

Or (in the The Mercy of Hell? A Review of The Skeletons in God’s Closet (Part 1))

Eventually, they will be removed and placed into their own self-appointed exile: “God’s mercy is … seen in his treatment of the impenitent: he does not torture or kill them, but rather hands them over to their desire.”

More on this in the interview Facing the Skeletons in God’s Closet

Notice I like Butler’s position over that of eternal conscious torment. There’s also the experiences of Tiffany Snow, who had a near death experience. She became a contemporary Christian healer and stigma bearer (i.e. in the Old Catholic Church tradition). Here is her perspective on what happens three weeks after death at After Death

There have been many versions of faulty teachings about God – but he is not like a prison warden, or a strict overbearing disciplinarian who would send anyone to a fiery hell of torment. He is the core of unconditional Divine Love, forgiveness and mercy.

Therefore universalism, annihilation and eternal, self-imposed exile, are all humane options (from a human standpoint), on how we response to God’s all embracing love, where God finally becomes “all in all”. And would God know how humans would respond, or do we take some option like Open Theism ?

Or let’s put it this way. A doctor comes to you with a new scientific wonder drug. This drug can put you in an eternal blissful state, and make you exceptionally strong, smart and fast, along with being immune to all diseases. But the drug could also kill you or put you into an internal, imaginary world, where you don’t experience the real reality - perhaps it’s the “real” reality of the Matrix movies, that becomes your new reality. And the doctor might not know if it would work on everyone 100% of the time. Would you take it?

[davo]

I’ve given up looking for a Biblically faithful church where I will be safe to continue pursuing answers to lingering questions on these two issues of Preterism and Christ-centered Universalism.

Welcome “dandepriest” to the dark-side of inclusive prêterism aka pantelism.