Examples of arminians ignoring the plain meaning of scripture?


#4

Act 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


#5

That’s a good one davo. It definitely sounds like God chose, not the people. Where free will fits in I’m not sure. Can you think of any other verses?


#6

I discussed this issue in a recent thread on a syllogism to support Universalism. But here are a few verses that do indeed support the idea that God accomplishes whatever pleases Him or whatever He desires, wants, purposes, etc.

So, if He desires everyone be saved, then everyone will be saved.

Job 42:2 I know that you [the Lord God] can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Isaiah 46:10b and 11b My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose . . . I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.

Isaiah 55:11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.


#7

Thanks lancia. Do Calvinists appeal to those verses for their soteriology? Perhaps the case could be made that those verses aren’t talking specifically about eternal destinies, and so to form soteriological doctrine from them is to take them out of context. Do you know of any verses in the NT that say God saves who he wants to save? IIRC there are some statements along those lines in John. I’ll have to reread it.


#8

Ephesians 1:10-11 says that God works all things according to His will.

. . . in Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.”


#9

Okay, I’ve been reading John tonight. What do you think of John 6:44?

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

John 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”


#10

I see how John 6:65 can be used to support views other than Universalism, but it still is not necessarily incompatible with Universalism.

If God desires all be saved and God accomplishes all He desires, then there are many ways in which He can accomplish what He desires, even given that free will of humans exists.


#11

Do you think arminians ignore the plain meaning of those verses in John 6?

Elsewhere in John it says the Father has given all things to the Son. If “things” includes people, and all whom the Father has given the Son will come to the Son and never be cast out, universalism is the inescapable conclusion, no?


#12

Yes.


#13

What are the Scripture references you refer to? Then we can examine the respective contexts in considering whether or not universalism is a valid conclusion.


#14

“Things” isn’t in the text. It almost never is—maybe it NEVER is. I haven’t found a spot where “things” is included with “all.” This place is no different. What it says here is that the Father has given ALL to the Son. Jesus also affirms that “All that the Fathe gives to me shall come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will by no means cast out.


#15

As a pantelist THAT is my entire contention… that evangelicalism, be it Calvinism, Arminianism or Universalism, totally misses, messes and muddles the “soteriological doctrine” of the Bible, and in particular, the NT.

From the pantelist perspective… salvation—eternal life was NEVER about position or destiny postmortem, i.e., heaven, BUT rather, purpose and designation antemortem in terms of service to God… thus those who are called are saved to serve. The whole ‘getting to heaven’ issue was ALREADY secured between the Father and Son.

Thus the likes of ‘repentance and faith’ have NOTHING to do with escaping judgement pre OR post-mortem BUT everything to do with one’s faithfulness to the call of service to God.


#16

Interesting Cindy. I read the ESV, which has “things”. http://biblehub.com/john/3-35.htm

Perhaps the Father has given all judgment to the Son, as opposed to all people?

@JasonPratt


#17

John 6:37, John 13:3


#18

Well… He HAS given all judgment to the Son, because He is a Son of Man. (Can’t remember where that is, somewhere earlier in John, I think…) Read Coll 1–All of it, but especially the middle part. He has given ALL to the Son. That includes people.


#19

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; (Jn.13:3, KJV)
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; (Jn.13:3, NIV)
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (Jn.6:37)

To play the devil’s advocate, i’d note that all (things) being given "into His hands (13:3) does not necessarily equate to them being given to Him (6:37). One may refer to power or authority & the other to intimate relationship. The NIV interpretation above paraphrases “into His hands” as “under his power” (13:3), which recalls Mt.28:18b, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.”

Also Hebrews 10:30-31 does not put “into the hands” of God in a positive light:

30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Additionally the context of John 6:34-40 is not about universalism but two groups, those who believe and those who don’t, with believers obtaining eonian life & being raised “in the last day”.

John 3:35, like Jn.13:3, also refers to all (things) being given into Jesus’ hand. Again the context has nothing to do with universalism, but with Jesus authority “over all” (v.31) & two destinies, one for believers to eonian life, and the other for the stubborn who shall not be seeing life & have the wrath of God upon them (v.36).

Likewise the context of John 13:3 has nothing to do with universalism, & speaks of Jesus “loving His own” (v.1) & Judas’ betrayal (v.2).


#20

Origen , are there ANY verses that you think support universalism? I’m starting to think you’re a closet arminian or calvinist.


#21

Some verses I would use are probably not so commonly seen. Take, for example these two:

Revelations 2:11 - “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.” ESV

Revelations 21:8 - But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” ESV

Not sure why no one picks up on these verses, but first the term “hurt”. Not destroyed, not killed, no annihilated, but hurt. What is the second death? The Lake of Fire. Who is not hurt by it? The over-comer, presumably would be one who lives morally upright life, not just a good person, but a really good person.

Second, notice how “faithless” is right in there with a lot of other things… At first this might not trigger something. But ponder this further. If “faithless (unbelievers)” are destined for the second death, then why list the rest of those things? If “faith” in Jesus Christ is all it requires to avoid the second death, then it is completely needless to list any of those other “sins”. Think about it. If mainstream evangelical Christianity is right, provided you have faith, it doesn’t really matter what your life looks like! But I think this verse indicates that is a false understanding. Jesus never said “Ask me into your heart and I’ll let you in Heaven” and mainstream Christianity teaches that while we are believers, we will still have besetting sins, things that get us down and drag us through the mud. Well, OK then, but if so you better be prepare yourself for that Lake of Fire, because you are likely going there even if you have faith, because you might meet the criteria of those “others” things listed as worthy of the Lake of Fire.

To me, it is clear as day, as least according to the Revelation of John. What he is saying, basically, is if one overcomes in this life, that is, if one believes, performs the works required of salvation and learns all there is to learn in this life, then one is protected from any harm that the Lake of Fire offers for the very simple reason that the burning up of their wickedness had already taken place – in this life. The believer, in theory, has the advantage over the unbeliever, but not if they don’t overcome. If they don’t overcome, it might be even worse for them in the Lake of Fire than for someone like, you know, Richard Dawkins because of what Jesus says in Luke 12.

Luke 12:47-48 - “And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating” ESV

My reasons for Universalism being true is simple: I observe almost no one overcoming in this life. Maybe people do, maybe they don’t. But it is very safe to say that a very, very small few overcome. Out of everyone I know and met and was able to get to know, or hear through the media, has had a less than stellar reputation and attitude that would disqualify such a one from overcoming, at least at this point in their life. I suppose, it could be argued that people on their death beds somehow overcome, but I think that is wishful thinking. I think it is more fair to say that 99.9% do not overcome. Then we have the issue of what then? What happens to all of us 99.9%? God would be unjust, or just a really bad creator and savior if we all suffer endlessly, or are annihilated. I could do better than him, if that were the result. You just can’t get around that.

Was Christ an alchemist, or a physician? Did he simply give us the medicine hoping we would know where the put the needle and administrator the potion or does he actually administrate it? I mean what physician drops off all the medical equipment and says “Here you go”… Uhh, what? I mean, what do I do with it good doctor? I dunno, figure it out dude, I gotta go! My father needs me! good luck! I hope you make it!

None of this is even remote believable, unless you have been brainwashed to believe it.


#22

Yes, there’s 1 Cor.15:22-28; Rom. 5:18-19 & Phil.2:9-11, just to cite a few examples amongst many. Not only have i supported universalism, both on this forum in dozens of threads & likewise on other forums i’ve linked to in many posts here, but i also believe in the ultimate salvation by Love Omnipotent (i.e. God), through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, of all beings, including demons & Satan himself.

In hundreds of posts on the old forum my every post contained links to these two pages:

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html


#23

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will