Thoughts?
Sonia
Hi Sonia,
Just wanted to ask if you are familiar with this guy/group and what you think of them? Would you recommend them? Thanks again for this post. Loved it!
Kelly
*** MASSIVE EDIT ***
Kelly,
As I re-read my post I realized I sound so antagonistic. First let me assure you I find you to be a great example of those who are trying to obey God’s commands in the sense that you understand. I don’t think you’re nuts or legalistic. I do think you’re wrong about particular points on the issue, but it hardly means I see you as being judgemental.
I don’t want you to feel (at this forum) like someone like you is not welcom. You are. Just please understand that many people who have emancipated themselves from ECT are very particular about views and the data used to support those views.
So I’m going to re-post tommorow with a tone that honors rather than sounding dis-honoring.
Lots of love to you and Mr. Shepherd,
Aug
Perhaps I’m a tad bibliolatrous, but I do find it a bit uncomfortable when people suggest that Moses misheard Yahweh. I’m not vehemently opposed to it, but I find it’s problematic and disconcerting. No other prophet ever criticized Moses and the revelation He had received. Those few prophets that were greater than Moses (Yeshua and John the Baptist) didn’t write anything, so if Moses was wrong, why would we trust any other potentially deaf prophet of the Christian scriptures (especially as they are most probably “lesser” prophets)? I personally think we should wrestle with a systematic theology that can accommodate both revelations as theologically inerrant (even if it means we feel Moses is theologically irrelevant today. After all, Yeshua is the prophet Moses deferred us to in all things — as you said, exactly like the Father).
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Kelly,
you got to my post before I could edit. Like I said after re-reading it came off as pointing a finger so I edited it. I don’t want to antagonize you yet I do want to have a real discussion where severe differences can be set out on the table without any animosity. I’m trying to keep from sounding antagonistic and that is a reflection of my bad habits and bad character. You’ve been wonderfully gracious - thanks.
I think we’ve established that we both view each other as being inconsistent. I realize you would not just grab a stone, grab a sabbath breaker, and kill them (there is a process to stoning someone). But I imagine you would vote for the stoning of sabbath breakers, homosexuals and adulterers. And you certainly would do it if American law embraced such literal commands. I would not. I believe like Jesus we should all look to each other and realize the command to poke out an eye DOES NOT BRING ABOUT JUSTICE. It does not cause our neighbors to keep God’s word - for if it had, Israel woud have repented. Even when God does the killing, Israel faulted. Cutting off my hand to keep it from sinning and to save myself from hell won’t do anything - the problems not in the hand but in the heart. Thus I can rest assured that though Jesus’ teaching is to cut off hands, I feel safe to interpret it radically different than the obvious. I believe he means the heart must be cut out or circumcised (and that is done by God).
I’m asking for an interpretation that satisfies me. Why does Jesus seem to swtich directions regarding acheiving justice?
If the Torah is perfect in every literal way then why does he swtich from poking out someone’s eye to turning the cheeck and where is the turning the other cheek in the torah? If it’s not there is Jesus adding to the torah? if you say he’s re-interpreting it so we understand it’s true meaning then there’s an epestemic quality that many people can’t grasp the original command.
WAABrothers makes sense to me and I sypmathize with him on these grounds: The teaching to achieve justice for Israel is to poke out a persons eye who has poked out someone’s eye. Jesus says - Turn the other cheeck. I can accept that he’s not changing the law, but instead he’s illuminating the real meaning of eye for an eye. But that introduces a problem, namely that there is a radical shift in our understanding of the torah. If that is true here, then can it be true eleswhere? Could we misunderstand the keeping of the torah? Could we misunderstand the keeping of eye for an eye?
I understand you to say, yes Christians can embrace murder cognitively because we’re all at different places. So if a Christian belileves it’s alright to murder, well he’s just at a different place.
I reject this.
I believe we cannot embrace love (Christ) and embrace murder. It’s impossible to love God and hate your brother.
So there are two major differences which show why I continue to hold a different view then you.
- it is impossible to embrace both Christ and murder.
- our sin and guilt prevents us from stoning anyone even when God commands that we do it. What if Moses would have said - let he who is without sin cast the first stone - negating anyoen from putting sabbath breakers to death?
I realize you’ll reject no. 1, but I say this because when it comes to defiantly breaking the sabbath you say - we’re all at different places and God will be the judge. I say, when it comes to the 6th, it’s not a matter of being at different places, thus why should I accept that breaking the 4th is. After all if breaking the 4th means death because it’s an evil sin to work on saturdays, then how can one hold to not observing the sabbath and love God (for loving God is loving and obeying his commands)?
We all have issues and I do not hold anything against anyone. I appreciate honesty, I just don’t want to play religion. I think honest debating seems antagonistic at times. We all need the freedom to “work through” what we are talking about without being rejected. I don’t really know you, or you me so, that makes it difficult sometimes in deciding if honesty and truth are where we are headed.
If your heart is right, shouldn’t your hand be also? I say if you train your hand to be right, you have a right heart.
Have you ever considered that the Torah was not only about justice? Or about keeping people in line?
Your imagination concerning my view is not correct. I have asked you to not attempt to speak for me via restating, through your own imagination, my view of Torah. I would be thankful if you would grant my request. I will answer, to the best of my ability any questions concerning my view (though as I have repeatedly stated, I am not a theologian) but, I will not continue to acknowledge these radical statements with a response.
God doesn’t always give us interpretations that satisfies us. So, I doubt you will find any interpretation I give you satisfactory. God gives us love that is spelled out in Torah, His love is holy, just and good. God’s love doesn’t equal unrighteous tolerance or cruel vengeance. It is true love. Jesus doesn’t “switch gears”. He came to save sinners, that was His purpose. He will return again to judge. Judge if we have followed Him or squandered His gift of salvation.
He didn’t teach the judges of Israel this. He was talking to His disciples about going beyond the requirements of Torah. It is the same when Jesus tells them to not look at a woman lustfully because it is adultery. The “written law” says “committing the physical act of adultery is sin but, Jesus says even looking at a woman lustfully is adultery. Same in this “other cheek” teaching. He was teaching His disciples to walk out Torah in truth. To walk like He walks. He asks that the hearts of those who follow Him be right and walk in truth ( 2nd mile, don’t even look at a woman lustfully, turn the other cheek, etc). Not sin against God and neighbor and then just plead His blood. (It is not right to trample His blood after He has sacrificed Himself. He died that you can put off the flesh (sin) and walk in the Spirit).
I agree with the “illumination” as I have stated above, only that Jesus was speaking to those who followed Him. How could He require this “illumination” of those who weren’t following Him? If it’s hard to follow the “letter”, how much harder is it for a man without the Spirit of God to follow the “illumination” of Torah? I do believe the christian religion, for the most part, does misunderstand Torah. They start out with a premise that that bad 'ol OT God is mean and His “law” is harsh so, this sweet teddybear god came to save us from the bad OT God. The truth is, He came to save us from OUR SINS. He is Immanual – God with us. Yehovah’s Salvation (from our sins – not His holy, just and good Torah). If you hate your brother but, don’t “murder” him, this is ok then? Or, if you commit the physical act of murder but, love him while you kill him, this is ok? What is it you want to “change”? That we don’t have to literally hold to the commandments? Or that in our great wisdom, we can choose which to keep and how?
This is a very radical and sweeping judgment. Your riddle leaves questions like – if christians valued God and His Torah and His sacrifice – wouldn’t their lives be changed? Wouldn’t they be doing what God says is right? And, if they were, why would they have to be all freaked out about the “written” letter of Torah? How many christians do you know that commit adultery? Can they BE christians? Or is that not a big deal anymore? Is it only murder that matters?
I think that is very noble. What about the rest of what God says is right and wrong?
Why, or why not? And, does that apply to all of the commandments or just the ones you think are fair?
On 1 - So, as long as your not a murderer, you’re good to go? Doesn’t matter what else you do? Or do you have a list we could look over?
On 2 – I don’t see your comments as logical. No man was ever perfect or without sin yet, there have always been judges. Paul says to set anyone (even the least equipped, if you have to) to judge matters between the brothers.
I already answered the “cast the first stone” comment in a previous post.
The murderer is also at a different place with God. The 2 great commandments are 1.) Love Yehovah your God and 2.) Love your neighbor. Breaking #1 is sin against God. #2 is sin against neighbor. I don’t believe God likes it when you sin against Him, even if you are not held to account for it now. You can play the mean, vengeful god game if you want but, reality is if you are not in sin you don’t have to worry about it.
You mock one commandment and nobly take hold of another. I think He has shown us both in written Torah and by the testimony of Yeshua Messiah how to walk. And to say we should not look and be different than those who hate God because we have some “special” mystical reality that allows us peace when we walk contrary to what is written and how Yeshua walked, is folly. If a “non believer” did that, you would call it sin (if it were on your list of “can’t be a christian if you . . . ). Isn’t it just better to call sin as God calls it?
Agreed, I’m trying to be honest and open. I might sound antagonistic – I don’t mean to be and will do my best to neither hurt nor upset you.
I think this brings us to a point of which I think we’ll be sympathetic with each other. Paul says if I surrender my body to flames but have not love, then it’s worthless. I translate your words to say “if you wash the outside of the cup or the tomb is whitewashed” then the inside must be as well. Really it only begs the question – what does it mean to be clean on the outside. And how do we achieve that. You say train your hand but that is a matter of the mind/heart. Jesus seems to say if you can’t train it, cut it off. I believe we can safely interpret him to actually mean, cutting off your hand is like circumcising the penis – it does nothing. I could cut off both my hands and continue to steal in my heart coveting my neighbor’s belongings. I could gouge out my eyes and still commit adultery. I could refrain from stabbing my neighbour thinking I’m cleaning the inside while maintaining I wish he would die – I commit murder. So I would disagree, I say you cannot train your hand, you must have a renewing of the mind so that your desires shift from doing evil to doing good. (again “doing good” is what we’re really debating).
All I can do is apologize. I didn’t mean to do that. I’m thinking out and apparently sometimes it gets me in trouble. I’m assuming that since you believe in following a literal interpretation of the Torah, then putting people to death, who work on Satrudays, is a law you would support for U.S. Law. But I get confused because I understand you to respond that WE don’t need to put anyone to death since disobedience will take care of itself (in other words, they’ll die from their disobedience). But for me, then you’re not following God’s instruction that the violator must be PUT to death, not let die of old age. After all in numbers 15, God explicitly instructs them to take him away from the people and stone the Sabbath breaker.
I detect a major difference for us is this inclination or lack of for human intuition. If God does not satisfy me on an interpretation then why should I accept it? I believe we dialogue because little by little we begin to see each other’s views more clearly and learn from each other. But this intuition, I suspect, is a larger piece to this puzzle.
I see several problems here. Going beyond poking an eye out to achieve justice would be to cut off his head if he cut off someone’s hand. It seems to me Jesus is going the other way with it. I read him as saying the latter abrogates the former. Otherwise I figure he would have said “You’ve heard it said eye for an eye – well heak yea that’s how we achieve justice! But you should also know you can also turn the other cheek to.” - How is turning the other cheek compatible with poking out someone’s eye? They seem like two different paths to me.
Peter does seem to say the law was a yoke our fathers could not bear. So I’m not certain you’re right. I think it’s the law keepers that misunderstand it because they reverse the formula – If you obey the rules then you love – but the formula Jesus and Paul laid out was – if you love then you’ve achieved the rules. Yes I’m saying the subtext is that the rules vanish because they are truly encapsulated in love not the other way around – for God’s kingdom is of love not of meat.
I’m a bit confused. I’m saying that if you endorse that Christians can openly and knowingly reject resting on Saturdays (because of their interpretation of the Sabbath – much the way the Pharisees interpreted the laws) can they do so and be a Christian. In this same way can a Christain openly embrace and promote adultery? If being in a different place makes breaking the Sabbath acceptable, then being in a different place makes adultery acceptable – I don’t believe this is true. I believe openly knowingly embracing adultery is to reject Christ. Openly knowingly accepting hatred of your brother results that one does not know God, for God is love. So I’m pushing the logic – if God teaches us to put Sabbath breakers to death, why don’t we? Isn’t it a moral issue?
It’s not a matter of picking and choosing, it’s a matter of interpretation.
auggybendoggy wrote:I believe we cannot embrace love (Christ) and embrace murder. It’s impossible to love God and hate your brother.
Because love is not a matter of the meat you eat. It’s not a matter of sitting down on Saturday’s. Again, because I believe God speaks through subtext. So abstaining from pork is not a matter of love. Turning the other cheek is (Yes I sympathize with WAAB’s pacifist notions).
This speaks to me that I am right that you would endorse putting to death Sabbath breakers. So why don’t you? Are you certain you’re not picking and choosing? It seems to me you are.
I’m not playing any game. I’m testing your ideas. I don’t mock any commandment – we all struggle with critical thinking. I’m not mocking anything – I’m calling into question YOUR INTERPRETATION of the law and it’s relevance to morality and salvation. I agree we are to walk as Jesus walk and as I see it, he said you can do work on the Sabbath (good work - to all to the glory of God – we’re all priests). I’m not saying we should not look different, I’m arguing what the difference is. For you it’s abstaining from pork. I say hogwash. It’s about love not meat; it’s about not being a hypocrite. It’s about justice and mercy and a contrite heart and loving others as we love ourselves – which often can call us to breaking the rules of the torah like “bearing false witness against neighbours (nazis) to save jews”. Again, “calling sin as God calls it” is a matter of interpretation – I hope you realize that.
Last and not least, I believe Paul covers this well when he says “to those without the teaching (torah) I become one as not under the teaching (torah)” if that’s Paul’s position, then I’m in good company – because I understand you to be saying “Shame on you Paul! For to not be as one under the law is to embrace murder, adultery, lying, stealing, Idolatry”. If you have a problem with most Christians (who become as one without torah), it seems to me you’ll have a problem with Paul (who becomes as one without torah).
For all the back and forth you still want to say that I’m under the law and bringing others under the law. I have repeatedly stated that:
- we are saved, SAVED, by grace through faith in Messiah’s work on the cross - only.
- that if we are walking in the Spirit of God:
a. our hearts are changed
b. we carry in us the Holy Spirit. And because of these two things we: - desire to do what is right spiritually and literally- keep Torah
If you have a heart for God but, bad habits that don’t honor Him, you can change your behavior. If you don’t have a desire for God - you can’t - you don’t even care or want to. I’m not saying you can earn salvation by works but, that you can make your body submit (be self controlled) to your desire to honor God - if you have #1 and #2.
This misunderstanding of me “being under the law” is a continual source of confusion in our conversations. I would try to convince someone to go to #1 and 2 and not rely on the law for salvation too if I thought they were trying to go on law alone so, I understand what you are saying but, I don’t depend on “the written law” for anything. It is simply the outworking of my faith.
Also, I don’t “have a problem” with Christians that don’t keep Torah. I have a problem with the establishment who continues to lead people in a cheap, meaningless prayer and tells them that’s it - just be you, there’s nothing else. Which also means there is no change, no healing - there is no “wrong doing” after you say the prayer. After you “repent” and say the prayer, you can still not do the commandments (sin) but, it’s not sin anymore . . . . it’s freedom. A pardon from your sins of the past and freedom from God - the old mean one.
Kelly,
It takes to long to re-read our dialogues and so I’ll just address you as if we were in a room chattin away. I’ll also try to be brief to keep you from spending unnecessary time.
I’d like to get your opinion on Paul’s statement here:
1 Cor 9
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
If Paul means that to those under the law (that is to be saved by the law) he becomes one who is as saved by the law, then he’s sending them the message that one can be saved by the works of the law. I find this untenable with his other statements regarding those who demand that one must obey the laws of Moses in order to be saved (including circumcision). I interpret Paul to mean that for those who are under the law are Jews. That he became like them (following their observances) to reach them.
Now for the flipside: If Paul means by “those without law” those who endorse murder, adultery and idolatry, he becomes as one who endorses murder, adultery and idolatry – I would find this untenable with his other writings. By this I believe he means, Gentiles didn’t have the regulations Jews were under (like eating kosher foods) and so if someone cooked pork for dinner, Paul ate pork in order to save them.
Here I believe “under the law” is not a reference to “saved by the law”. I understand Paul to mean “under the rules and regulations”. Would you agree?
Kelly, also to comment on your last post:
Yes I agree with your concern regarding “instant Christian - just add hot water”. I too agree that the change of faith is in the heart and it begins to manifest in some way. Fruit begins to bear witness - though not perfectly as our transformation is a daily process.
We just disagree on what that fruit is. While I hold that it’s love of God and neighbor, you hold that love obeys the literal commands of God’s teaching - resting on sabbath, food laws and everything else.
But regarding saying a quick prayer and then we’re baled out of God’s wrath is what I consider to be a seed planted on shallow ground.
Aug
Well, this is interesting!
I have sympathy for kelly’s position, mostly because I’ve read her story on other posts and understand why this for her is needed and liberating. My own story in this regard is practically a polar opposite to Kelly and I find that I’m at the opposite end of the spectrum to her with regards Torah, so maybe our own personal experiences do affect our objectivity more than we think?
I grew up in a very conservative, Christian house. Much was made of rules, while at the same time denying we were saved by anything other than grace. There was also often a big push towards all that is Hebrew. Hebrew names for God, Hebrew songs, Hebrew living etc. (I’m summarizing, it’s obviously more complicated than this). I felt from a young age that I was being judaized, although I wouldn’t have phrased it that way. I just knew I felt as though my own self was being suffocated. I love Jewish people and culture, but there is no part of me that is one and I had no more desire to transform myself into a gentilish Jew, than I did to become Chinese. The rules were to me a millstone of guilt, that left me feeling imprisoned.
Truth is, I felt in my heart that I was pagan. I mean that in the nationality sense, the original sense of a country dweller that was a gentile. Not obviously, a follower of pagan religion. I use the term really just to show how opposite people’s paths can be. My heart sings when it hears the music of my country. I have a very dear love of the natural world and God’s creatures and I’ve always seen Him in it. When I first learnt of the ancient Celtic church, it felt as though I’d come home. All the worship and love of Christ, existing in a way I innately understood. Learning the history of the Church, it seems that churches always became the Church of Such and Such a Place and it discarded only the cultural aspects of the people that were sinful. All the glorious differences between people groups that were benign, were celebrated within the life and liturgy of the church.
I look at Torah with great reverence and believe we learn much from it. After all, out of Israel our saviour came. But I do think that it was God’s law to israel and not to all the other nations, whom he dealt with in His own way. I see it in the Acts and epistles too: that Jesus came to save Gentiles, conforming them to His image but with the individuality of the different people groups intact. Never do I sense He wanted us to become like Jews. But that’s just my personal take on it and why Torah following would kill me spiritually. When I read the horrors Kelly grew up with, I’m not surprised Torah brought her peace and stability.
Lately I’ve become sympathetic to the view that the Law was the Law of Moses rather than God’s Law. And that God meets mankind where they are and begins to lift us up till we see clearly. So like we might regulate gambling, whilst not agreeing with it; like how Moses permitted divorce due to hard hearts, even though God hates divorce; I believe much of the Law was the best sort of regulation that could be given at the time, considering the nature of the people, the times they lived in and the other cultures going on around them. I don’t think God ever intended the Law to be God’s best plan for mankind. Instead, I think that was the person of Christ.
Just an aside about abortion. Before I start, let me just state I am prolife and in the course of my job, I have been present during abortions of all gestations. I am aware acutely both of the horrors of the proceedure and the horrors that drive people to abortions. But, despite my being prolife, I don’t really see a particularly strong case made for this in scripture, certainly not strong enough to compare it to the child sacrifice to molech. In fact, does not Torah itself teach that if a man causes a woman to miscarry, but no further injury results, he is fined, not put to death as he would be if it were considered equivalent to murder. Abortion is an ancient practice, but the bible really says nothing about it. Maybe sometimes we project our own sensibilities on to scripture?
Very interesting story, Jael.
Thank you for sharing. I am not involved in organized religion and actually don’t know anyone that “believes” exactly like me either. I have mostly just talked about Torah because of this particular thread. I don’t have a lot of time to be on the forum so, I have stayed on a couple of threads. This is not the whole of my beliefs but, just an area. I don’t subject myself to others beliefs and find myself a heretic among most, be they pagan or christian. I try to be at peace with both. Ironically, I get more flack from christians than I do pagan people I know. Christians are probably more angry with me in the area of following Torah. They despise it for the same reason you do. Upbringing in a religious home where following a man means more than following God, though they think it the same thing. They equate what God says is holy and just with authorities in the religious structure that abuse them, who don’t want them to use their own mind or have any real contact with God by themselves because it makes them harder to control. It seems many struggle with the feelings of hurt but, don’t place the “bad” with their own parent or pastor or whatever the abusive authority was. Instead they blame God for their bad feelings. I imagine it would be easier to blame God, who they can ignore and not have contact with then try to deal with those who they must see in their family or community and I feel for them.
I don’t have a conflict with my beliefs and loving nature. The earth speaks and I listen. There is no conflict with the Spirit of Yehovah. Many christians may think it’s wrong to listen to God’s creation but, I don’t. Many pagans may want to divorce God from His creation but, I don’t.
I don’t understand how you see these “horrors”, as you call them, that I have grown up and yet, find yourself desiring that path. What do you mean by this Jael?
This is actually what Torah says . . .
If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. - EXODUS 21:22
But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. EXODUS 21:23-25
And, if God so values a baby that has not yet been born, what of one who has been torn limb from limb in the womb for the sole purpose of ending it’s life? It is evil. We all believe “God is love”. Where is the love in that? The sad reality is we want to make God in our image not be restored to His. And, we think we are so much wiser than He. That delusion will end. These ideas, for me do not come out of “conservative christianity”. Call it common sense, a willingness to hear what the earth is saying or just simply that it Torah but, it’s somewhat insulting to have you try to pigeonhole me in some stupid religious movement to condone your own ideas. To accomplish that you’ll have to discuss it with a baptist or something.
Anyway, yeah we do tend to project our sensibilities on to scripture, don’t we?
I think we are closer to agreeing than you may think. I know the fruits of the Spirit are listed in the NT. I agree with them. I even think people can “do nothing” “literally” and be bearing fruit. The major difference I think is that I think if you keep the “law of Christ” it manifests in the physical and is clearly seen by the keeping of the commandments. So, you don’t look at a woman lustfully (law of Christ) - if you keep this “law” then you will also inadvertently keep the written commandment and not “commit the act” with her. Doesn’t mean your “under” the law. If the law of Christ is in place, the outcome will be literal also. The sabbath and less obvious “laws” may seem harder for you to work out but, there is a place for them.
You say if we keep the “law of Christ” we won’t kill our neighbor. I agree. I also agree it starts with Christ and not with us “working” to keep the commandments. We agree on the principle. It is a principle that I apply throughout scripture not just on a couple of the commandments. I respect your place with Christ. Hey, it all works out in the end right?! 
Hey Auggy!
Seems like Paul is saying anyone can come to God from anywhere they are at and that is where Paul meets them. But, he doesn’t leave them there. Continue reading on from this passage through chapter 10 and I think it may be much clearer what Paul is getting at.
Kelly, I must confess you’ve lost me. Which movement am I trying to pigeonhole you into in order to condone my ideas? I wasn’t talking about you or your ideas. And what ideas of mine am I condoning? I told you I’m prolife. I just dont, as of yet, use scripture to justify my position as I don’t see a particularly strong case in scripture. It doesn’t mention abortion once, and I dont find arguments from silence persuasive from either the prolife or prochoice perspective.
The scripture is usually understood to mean a miscarriage, with harm to the mother bringing about the eye for eye type justice. I understand that your interpretation is a valid one and I respect it. I just don’t think it is the accurate view of that verse. Maybe I’ll see evidence to change my mind one day. But till then, despite this, I’m still prolife!
Maybe you’re misunderstanding why my position is what it is. In my life, I’ve seen so much Christian misrepresentation, that I’ve come to really dislike it. So I’m probably overcareful in my efforts to not be misleading. I cannot in all good conscience tell people the Bible says abortion is a sin, if I don’t see that it says anything of the sort. I explain my own reasons for being prolife to people; maybe explain what fruits of the Spirit lead me to a prolife position. But I don’t unequivocally state that the Bible itself clearly teaches against it, because I haven’t seen that. Now you can clearly see the Bible as speaking against it, so you can do so in good conscience.
While abortion is a deeply sad thing, I have to clear something up. I’ve never in my life seen a baby torn limb from limb from its mothers womb. Most are too small to be seen, never mind have limbs. And those aborted later, generally in my country that would only be for acute abnormality ( one example I saw was a baby with all organs on the outside of the body), simply have labour induced and are born as any baby is born. Does this make it right? No. Is it sad? Most definitely yes. But it is not so bad as the tearing limbs scenario. I would imagine that would only occur in backstreet abortions in my country. And don’t take that as my approval of abortion. It isn’t. It’s just clarification. Like I said, I like all the facts accurately presented. And this is something I’m in a position to know, since I’m a midwife and terminations are performed on our labour ward. And while I can refuse to cause an abortion, I’m not allowed legally to refuse to care for mother and baby afterwards.
I find this sad. Don’t let anyone treat you like a heretic. Your walk with God is, quite frankly, no one else’s business
That doesn’t surprise me. It’s seen throughout scripture, both OT and NT, that those who think they’re so right with God think it’s their job to judge everyone else. Ignore them Kelly. To quote CS Lewis, if we all kept our eyes on our own sins instead of everyone else’s, there would be more change for good in this world. These Christians ought to pay attention to their own walk with God, rather than criticizing yours
I don’t despise the Torah. I despised having it forced on me. It was like forcing square peg me into a round hole.
Very likely true. I don’t think I ever blamed God for anything. I did my best to not believe in Him at all at one point, because I didn’t see how such a self contradictory entity could be real (the God of love who burns you forever?!). But I never succeeded in that. I’ve always loved and believed in Jesus. I think the years of bad pastors/teachers etc, have taught me to be cautious and to look upon my own views with some humility, hoping that I never become another religious bully.
I agree with this 100%. I think Romans 1 gives us the clue to what went so wrong. They began to worship the creature rather than the creator. I find it interesting that every ancient culture has their, for example, flood story, entry of sin via man story etc. It seems to me that all mankind once knew the truth about God, but this truth has become corrupted over the years as they drifted from God, worshipping creation rather than worshipping God with creation. Worshipping the very stars that scripture says sing in praise of YHWH.
If ‘horrors’ is too strong a word, I apologise. I was trying not to tone down the experience you had. I believed I had seen on another thread you commenting about how spirits were constantly around you as a child and that that was terrifying. Maybe I misremember what you said. I don’t think I said I desired that. In fact, I thought I was clear that I used the term pagan meaning in the sense of Gentile. I said I used that term, perhaps provocatively, I don’t know, to emphasise the different ways our lives have taken us. I think I was clear that I have zero desire for pagan religion. I worship the Holy Trinity alone. My only point was that I need, and I really do mean need, to worship YHWH out of who he made me. All that is good and neutral about this culture of mine, I want to use in glory to Him. I believe He made all kinds of people, with all sorts of attributes and that He made them for His glory. Trying to basically be a Jew, if anything, divided me from closeness to the Father. Maybe it’ll help if I give examples of what I mean. The church fathers used the Phoenix as a symbol of Christianity. A pagan symbol was transformed to communicate the gospel to those very people. And what a symbol! Out of death and fire, we are resurrected! I think Lewis would say, that was what the symbolism meant all along, man just got confused on the way. Or Sundhar Singh, who wore the yellow holy robes that the holy men of Hinduism and Sikhism wore, so that he could travel about and teach the people about the real Holy One. Or something inane, like the hot cross bun being used always now to represent the cross of Christ. Everytime they appear on the shelves, it reminds even the non religious about the cross of Christ. I hope I’ve cleared up any misunderstanding. Sorry if I led you to believe I wanted to worship other Gods. Urgh! I want nothing less!
Thank you for the clarification, Jael. I did read your post as you were going from God and Torah to Paganism. “Polar opposite” of me going from Paganism to God and Torah. “Horrors” is not too strong a word but, it makes a huge difference now that I know you aren’t choosing that path.
I understand what you mean by not liking Torah forced on you. We raised our children with Torah but, also taught them to ask hard questions of God and the Bible - which they have. They both say that if they were not a part of this family, having the freedom to take hold of their own faith, they would be agnostic, because of what little we have seen of institutional religion. I was appalled one time we “tried church” and found that children were to be seen and not heard. My children were raised engaging in conversation, asking and answering some real hard questions and being treated with the respect we expected from them. Those kids were just suppose to obey whatever they were taught about the Bible without a question. Wow! Sad!
I am very against abortion. Here, it is a form of birth control. It is used to control the population of the lower classes. I’m not kidding when I say, even pastor’s daughters simply rid themselves of the baby conceived in them when they had sex with their boyfriends. And why not? They are constantly told it is “a woman’s choice”. The church teaches we are not “under the law” and we can’t find a good reason, as believer’s in God, to not kill an unborn baby. Many healthy babies are sacrificed to the gods of wealth, pride and success here. Many do this because they believe the lie that what they have conceived in their body is not human, is not living. That is a lie. Here in America, you go to jail for killing an unborn baby eagle. For even possessing an Eagle feather but, go to the nearest abortion clinic – they are everywhere, and you can legally kill the life inside you. Isn’t it curious how we know killing an unborn baby Eagle is ending it’s life but, we can’t figure that out when it comes to an unborn human baby. It is evil.
I was suppose to abort my youngest daughter – to save myself. I had cancer, I needed chemo. I said, No way! (Well, I actually said a lot more than that but . . . ) The doctors told me I would die, the “fetus” would die or at best, if we both lived and the “fetus”, if it lived (hmmm?) would be severely retarded and physically handicapped. I said, So what?! I would not kill my baby to save myself – it seemed pretty cowardly to me at best – murder at worst. You know, today my beautiful 15 year old daughter is writing books and flying airplanes. She is an enormous blessing and joy to me. And, oh! The big bad cancer? Never cropped up again, never heard of it again, The doctors “lost the slides” that proved I even had it. Ironically, I have heard the same story from other women. Some who did abort and look at my daughter longingly and with great sadness. My heart breaks for them. I know what they lost – gave up, because of fear. I know the fear – the hard decisions – and the awesome joy of having “sucked it up” and made the right decision. Torah was a part of that decision – to say yes to the life of my daughter. All Torah. First, that Jesus gave His life for me – why should I not follow His example and give my life for my child? And second, I knew it was wrong to give my consent to kill my baby. Even a man “spilling his seed” was wrong, how much more taking a baby from the womb? I knew abortion was wrong when I was walking in sin, with no knowledge of Yehovah, before I knew any Hebrew words, before I had even looked inside a Bible, before I knew there were any laws besides the ones made in this country by men. So, I guess you could say in this area I was always a “law unto myself”. So glad of it too – I get to see the beauty of it everyday in my daughter’s sparkling eyes, gorgeous face and beautiful Spirit filled heart! Praise Yehovah! In the Name of Yeshua Messiah!! I thank Him daily for her. Abortion was the way Satan tried to steal from me the blessing God so graciously gave me. So, this is why I am against abortion. Even without the Bible and God I hated the idea of it. Now I think fear is the opposite of faith and aborting happens out of fear. Fear of shame, fear of rejection, fear of loss of success or income, fear of loss of life, fear of pain, fear of having to deal with something we think we can’t, etc. Fear is a formidable enemy. I have known fear - and I spit in it’s face! And, I cheer any woman or man who can when faced with it. I know that sounds a little rowdy but, that’s how I am. Wouldn’t have survived past 2 years old if I wasn’t and now I know God made me this way, if for no other reason but, to value and protect the life of my daughter who glorifies Him. Blessings, Jael and thanks again for the clarification!
1 Cor 9
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
I disagree. I agree Paul is going to meet them there but his point is not to bring those without the law UNDER THE LAW. And here “under the law” cannot mean “saved by works” for then v20 would make no sense; it would read:
To those saved by works I became as one saved by works in order to win those saved by works.
That doesn’t work for me. I see Paul stating that those who don’t have the law (eat pork, work on sabbath) he does as they do (eat’s pork and works sabbaths) But still upholds the law of Christ (love). Meaning he does no wrong in breaking those commands or as Jesus put it “Blasphemes the day and yet remains blameless”.
I don’t see in the context where Paul says anything about not upholding God’s instructions.