Hi Amy,
I don’t mean to say you were doing anything wrong. I have just observed an interesting pattern in the use of the word or action “judge” or “judgment” on the threads in which I have been participating. I too feel for these women. I know the hardships they struggle with. I think it is our responsibility to make life saving decisions. This also goes beyond this issue. If I saw a child drowning, I may logically conclude I can’t possibly save her or him but, to me, no matter the outcome - I would still try. To me, logic is one thing, faith another. It is rather cut and dry for me but, that is because I have already suffered through it, already made my decision and would do the same again. I understand it is not so cut and dry for others and that those who haven’t gone through it may not understand me. It is so, I think, with all things.
Hey Mag,
I have heard it so and I understand what you are saying. I see these as “fulfilled” not done away with. The sacrifice (to me) is not done away with - it stands, it is, even now. John saw the Lamb slain in the true temple in heaven - it stands - it is still. An understanding of the shadow points us to the Messiah. Many christians don’t even understand who Messiah is or why He deserves that title. To them, He is the American Jesus not the Jewish Messiah. They have only a vague idea, if any, about the importance of the sacrifices and Yeshua as our sacrifice. Wouldn’t faith be strengthened by understanding sacrifices and what Yeshua really did when He became the sacrifice? Torah keeps pointing to Him, even in the fulfilling, keeps confirming His credibility as the Messiah. Same with the “feasts”, understanding and participating in circumcision, or baptism. Hebrews is clear that there has been a change in the sacrifice but, it is fulfilled not done away with. If the sacrifice was done away with, there would be no Savior. I know I don’t view things in a traditional manner and it is not easy to get where I’m coming from so, I understand your concerns about my convictions.
As with Auggy, I don’t really get this “literal” label. I agree that we do not need to keep the law to be saved, that Messiah’s sacrifice is our salvation. However, we are still in the physical flesh here. I think we begin to fall under the “too heavenly minded for any earthly good” lifestyle sometimes. Outside of christian culture the idea of “love” doesn’t even make sense without good works. We may tell our unbelieving neighbor we “love them, God loves them” etc., but, if we steal from them, kill them, commit adultery (even looking), etc., with their spouse we aren’t fooling anyone but ourselves. They know that isn’t love. I have only been consistent in loving God as He says to according to the commandments by keeping sabbath on the 7th day. I know Yeshua is our rest but, keeping 7th day sabbath is only an outward sign of that, like baptism is a sign of dying with Christ and being raised from the death. None of us have “literally” died and been raised with Christ - we are still here in the flesh. It is for a sign. Again, I know it is not traditional christianity and may be a new idea but, I do not see it as inconsistent with what Yeshua did or taught or what is written. I know it has long been taught as inconsistent but, those are only teachings taught by men.
Truth. I agree. I am only extending that idea to all of the commandments instead of a select few.
In historical accounts, people in Israel were cruelly tortured and mercilessly murdered because they would not eat swine. It meant that much to them to obey God and interestingly, it meant that much to the Greek pagans that they eat it. I wonder why?
“And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” (Dan 7:25)
Why does the anti christ want to change time and law? What does he want to change it from? God’s way of counting time, God’s law, I would venture.
“for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass. `Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands–the least–and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach them , he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.” - Yeshua Messiah (Mat 5:18-19)
The downfall in thinking we no longer are obligated to uphold the law in a physical way is, we no longer see a reason for keeping it. Again, this is my thinking, it is not traditional and I haven’t run into a lot of people that understand or appreciate it.
2 Corinth 6:16- 7:1 "We are the temple of the living God, as God has said “I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be thier God and they shall be My people.” (quoted from the “old testament” - Lev 26)
Therefore,
“Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.” (from the “old testament” Isaiah 52, Ezek 20)
“I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, says Yehovah Almighty.” (from the “ot” 2 Sam 7)
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the FLESH AND SPIRIT, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
In this passage Mag, I see according to Paul the promises made to Israel is also extended to the Corinthian “goy”. And, that he says cleanse “ourselves” from ALL (all means all right?) filthiness of the FLESH, as well as the spirit, to perfect holiness. So, we are the temple of God. Where has anything unclean come into the tabernacle or temple in times past? Only when the pagans desecrated it with swine flesh. We are now the literal (in my terms physical and spiritual) “temple” of God. Isn’t it still important? It is to me. Also, as an aside, I think of things like illnesses related to swine and unclean things, scientists messing around with genetics and things they have no business in and think it will be important one day that we kept God’s commandments. It’s the prophet in me, lol! I do also think of it as how I love God. He knows my heart.
Blessings to you too! 
Isn’t our head covering in Corinthians spoken of as the authority over a woman (like a husband) spiritually and physically spoken of as a woman’s hair?
Hi Brother,
I don’t think it legalistic to value life. This is one basis for my stand for the importance of Torah. If we can’t glean from “Jesus” or “the holy spirit” in some supernatural way, or understand on our own somehow (logic, intellect, etc.), the importance of life - there ought to be an objective standard outside ourselves - our own ideas of “good”- to align ourselves with. Throughout the Holy Writings, we see and discern easily the importance Our Creator puts on life and especially the life of a person created in His image. So important that spilling the life blood of another requires the same of us. Torah here can be summed up in “love your neighbor as yourself” and “treat others as you would like to be treated”. To hold the life of your neighbor and protect it, at the same level of importance that you would your own life. I feel sometimes we get so caught up in what we don’t have to do anymore that we miss the whole flow of life. I don’t understand the difference between my situation and the women Amy knows who didn’t see a favorable outcome in their situation but, favorable or not favorable, I would rather trust Yehovah and continue in faith like Abraham who reasoned that God can raise the dead! Peace and blessing!
I seem to be in the middle between your two views guys, haha.
I believe we should all forgive all trespasses against us and leave justice to God. If someone trespassed against us, then is it because we harvested what we sowed earlior?
Sometimes, yes, sometimes, no.
Kelly,
I agree the sacrifice has been fulfilled, but at the same time the animal sacrifice is done away with. It is no more, to continue animal sacrifice would be an abomination to God and an affront to Jesus’ sacrifice. People that believe the temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices re-instituted are absolutely wrong (IMO). We are the temple of the HS, of the living God. Everything in the OT law revolved around the tabernacle/temple. The whole law is one, echad. If the literal, and what I mean by literal is a literal building of stone, and actual animals being sacrificed, as opposed to spiritual/allegorical ie we are the temple, if the literal temple is removed, the literal sacrifice is removed, if the literal passover and pentecost is removed, you know the wave sheaf offering couldn’t even take place without a literal temple. IF those are removed then why not the rest of those laws?
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.’”a
8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
the word for sets aside is here with all its usages, (it means to kill)
classic.net.bible.org/search.php … _index:337
He is not pleased with sacrifices and burnt offerings, He did not desire them.
Where it says made holy through, the word is sanctified/hagiazo. I’m not saying you are saying we are justified by the law. That has never been my argument. I know you don’t believe that. But I think you are saying we are sanctified by the law, and this is where I disagree. The law does not have anything to do with making us holy or sanctified. I think you’re saying its the outcome of being sanctified, but I disagree, the outcome are the fruits of the spirit.
Sorry if this is all over the place my brain is a little haywire, I started my yearly detox yesterday, I feel a little buzzed right now. 
I’ll get to the rest later 
Kelly,
I wonder how Kelly or any literalist avoids judging people who don’t keep the torah as they define law? I say this because you Kelly defend that human intuition is not enough for you do determine what parts are loving and what is not – for you (as I understand you – not trying to pigeon hole you) God’s laws are “love” and therefore abstaining from pork is love. So if someone eats pork, they are hateful and disobedient. Am I right about that? I ask because you seem to hold that not understanding why some things (like eating pork) is loving should not be left to your intuition. When you say eating foods may be about obedience, that to me is your way of saying…if you eat pork then you don’t love God, for to love God is to obey his commands. So I see you as on one hand not being able to explain how logically abstaining from particular foods shows love, but on the other you seem to argue it’s about obedience (which people do if they love God). I agree it’s all about obedience, but I believe God loves to speak in subtext. So eating has nothing to do with food as it does with you. Bread of life is not about wheat. These were only symbols.
I only mean that if Jesus means literally that nothing that goes into your mouth can defile you then it should be obvious that nothing you put into your mouth can make you more godly. It’s all about faith not about a type of magic cloth, or a piece of bread that was baked in an oven. Catholics seem to think the bread literally turns into Christ’s body when you digest it. That makes no sense to me. (I’m not saying you believe any of that, I’m just laying out that my objection to the Catholic is similar to my objection to your position.) I’m glad you don’t use the health reasons. I find them to be meaningless in defending the law. If abstaining from pork is healthy for you then someone should have schooled Jesus on why washing hands is more healthy than not – after all if our bodies are the temple then we should keep it clean right. I think I recall you appealing to health reasons – but perhaps my memory serves me wrong.
You say I focus on punishments. I am asking because if God has torah on how to deal with law breakers, I’m wondering why you don’t take up those measures. So yes, if we’re going to keep the law, we must keep it all including the laws on how to deal with law breakers. Why do we need new laws to deal with them, if in fact God has already told us how to deal with them. You’re last paragraph didn’t seem to really answer the question directly - seems all you did was declare that God’s law is freedom, people should follow it. I’m asking a legit question.
In Duet 19 God clearly states that the reason eye for an eye is issued is to make people fear.
Jesus states “you’ve heard it said eye for an eye, but I tell you turn the other cheek”
How do you find these two compatible?
Hi Auggy!
I’m sorry, I have been distracted lately and haven’t been here on the forum. I did not mean to ignore your response.
I obviously don’t know everything but, I try to walk in the understanding I have until God gives me more. So, when I say “stealing is wrong” for example, I intuitively know that to be true and the Bible confirms it to be true. It is God that speaks this truth, it is not me that says what is right or wrong. If I am uncertain about my intuition or do not hear in the Spirit, I check the only other authority I have - the Bible. So, I agree with God that stealing is wrong. If someone steals, I would say that is a wrong thing to do and I can show them a source outside of myself that confirms that. I don’t judge or condemn the person - I only try to speak truth to show them a better way. A person can turn (repent) and choose not to steal anymore. A person can confirm that truth intuitively by the Spirit and with the Bible. When I say a thing is good or wrong, I am not using my own logic or deciding I know a better way than what the Spirit speaks to me or through the Bible. It is our job to stand in truth, imo. It is not my job to change hearts, to bend others or to judge hearts - only to stand in truth. I think (please correct me if I’m wrong) that EU even agrees that any sin will be burned off in the purifying fires. I think standing in truth is loving. It is a loving thing to do it now, imo.
I do think everything still matters. And, the symbols were/are there for us to understand Christ better. Imagine if we didn’t think anything of Him being the Passover Lamb because it is only a symbol. We would miss knowing who He is in that symbol. Now, imagine knowing all the symbols and how Christ fulfills them. Wouldn’t that bring greater understanding of who He is? Wouldn’t it help us to have a closer relationship with Him because we know Him better? I can say conclusively, Yes! I understand all of us are at different places on the path and I think God gives us a chance to walk that path and grow. I think that is why He has reserved that judgment until the end. I also think He has called us to be transformed into His likeness daily as we walk with Him. Therefore, I conclude that it must necessarily be impossible to remain in the former sins we used to walk in and that should be obvious outwardly if there is transformation inwardly.
I do embrace a “literal”, by that I mean a physical view how we must look outwardly if we are transformed inwardly. However, the inward transformation or “spiritual” is where the transformation takes place first. I am therefore not bound to a “literalist” only view of Scripture or outward living but, adhere to the idea that the outward man will necessarily be changed by the inward transformation. I simply am not bound to one or the other as a matter of doctrine.
Ah. Yes, I suppose you could use the same argument about tithing or helping the poor, or any literalist, physical thing we do as a matter of living out faith. My main area of concern is that I live out my faith. That manifests outwardly in my physical person as well and in my inward person. I love God and my neighbor and so I help my widowed friend, my cousin’s orphaned children, etc. My “intuition” or conscience compels me to and my physical hand reaches out with provision and love. For me, it is natural to obey God any way I can. In the matter of pork, I know it can not make me godly not to eat. I already have the righteousness of Christ by way of His finished work on the cross on my behalf. I don’t do anything to earn God’s love, I obey simply because He loves me. If it is the faith of a child that He desires us to have then I have to be honest and say a child obeys most of the time without understanding why. I walk in most all things without complete understanding. You? I did not mean to defend the law. I only meant to share with others what God has shared with me to this point and I hoped that something would be a benefit to someone else, even as I have benefited from others here. As far as health reasons, I said there certainly is merit in considering what is good for the body. If pork is bad for the body then that shows the Creator made us in a way that does not align with pork consumption and then it may be said that all living things are created for a purpose, swine are garbage eaters and the Creator did not design them for our consumption. The logic could continue . . . that it is our desire for that which the Creator did not give to us eat that compels us to eat. That could be called greed. It could be said the same thing happened in the garden. However compelling the idea may be, I don’t eat it simply because God said not to and I trust Him in this thing.
Spiritually, I believe ultimate judgment and the refiner’s fire happens at the end of the age, as I stated above. I think the flesh is a shadow. Shadow’s mirror the image of the real thing. It is thus with the shadow of Messiah and it is thus with us. The shadow mirrors dimly what is going on inside the real being. No transformation on the inside means no change outwardly. Although as I said, we are all at different places on the path.
If we are transformed we are being freed from sin. Because Christ died for us we ARE being set free from sin. Intuition (witness of the Holy Spirit) and the Bible concur that stealing is a sin. When we confess our sin and, by the aid of the Spirit, stop stealing we are set free from the sin and are now free to serve Christ. Thus, following the “law” of God does set us free. God’s law is just law. How could it not be? Torah makes allowances for honest ignorance and unintentional sin - even for a murderer. There was and is now a sacrifice for those who sinned and repent. God’s law is only harsh for those who intentionally sin and don’t want to be accountable for it. Without just law anyone who didn’t care about doing right according to God, could commit any atrocities they wished and there would be no way for the innocent to plead for help from the hurt or oppression. God has a law, in part, for those who can not defend themselves, who can’t take care of themselves and yes, it means making those who would show no mercy accountable for the way they treat the weak. It calls for restitution to the widow (or anyone else) who has had their provisions stolen. A few ways why God’s law is good.
I’ll have to look closer at the context of the passages and get back to you on this Auggy. Sorry, it’s late and I feel like I’m probably already bogging down the system here. 
Here are a couple I thought of when I read your fear passages above. Don’t know if they mean anything here but . . .
“FEAR of Yehovah is a beginning of knowledge, Wisdom and instruction fools have despised!” (Pro 1:7)
" . . .giving thanks always for all things, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to the God and Father;
subjecting yourselves to one another in the FEAR of God." (Eph 5:20-21)
" . . .that which I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light, and that which you hear at the ear, proclaim on the house-tops. `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but FEAR rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna." (Mat 10:27-28)
Hey redhotmagma… I’ve been out for a while (working too many hours) but have a couple questions for you…
It sounds like what you mean is that because one part of the law is “killed” it kills the rest of the law.
To argue that if a part is killed (done away with), the whole is killed (done away with), doesn’t seem to follow. The “part” that is done away with is the sacrifice, not the entire set of God’s instructions.
Also,
Yehovah is the one who set passover in place. Yehovah meant the passover to be age-during.
In Exodus ch. 12 esp. v14
The sacrifice was changed to one sacrifice for all instead of many that needed repeated offering.
The temple that was literal and phyisical was changed to our physical bodies where we offer sacrifices.
He changed the way certain things happen (what the sacrifice is and the location of the temple) but didn’t completely do away with the rest of his instructions (the law).
Hi Mag! I’m so sorry about the lag time on a response.
I agree.
I think these people are right that the temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will be offered in it but, I agree with you that it will be an abomination.
Agree.
I’m not sure about this. Abraham kept Torah before there was a tabernacle so, I don’t believe the Torah necessarily needed to revolve around the tabernacle or temple.
" . . . and I have multiplied thy seed as stars of the heavens, and I have given to thy seed all these lands; and blessed themselves in thy seed have all nations of the earth; because that Abraham hath hearkened to My voice, and keepeth My charge, My commands, My statutes, and My laws.’(Gen 26:4-5)
Also, I haven’t read it specifically stated that the law is echad although, I think I would agree with you. I have to mull it over and pray about that before I can say conclusively.
I would not take that line of logic and draw the same conclusions. There is still a literal passover because there is still a literal Passover Lamb- Jesus. He was the literal sacrifice. If He had not been or if He isn’t, then we would still be sacrificing animals until He became that sacrifice. I would say that He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world although, the animal sacrifices took place until He became the literal Lamb slain. I celebrate Pesach in this manner not, according to animal sacrifices (not sure if that was already understood so, I should say, I do not live like a Jew under the law but, as a goy grafted into the spiritual Israel - as one who has seen the Hebrew Messiah and so, I celebrate Him in Pesach - I celebrate Him in everything.) Paul has stated it thus . . .
“Not good is your glorying; have ye not known that a little leaven the whole lump doth leaven?
cleanse out, therefore, the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened, for also our passover for us was sacrificed–Christ, so that we may keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of evil and wickedness, but with unleavened food of sincerity and truth.” (1Co 5:6-8)
And so I do.
Also, We are not left without a sacrifice. The sacrifice remains. The law of sacrifice could not be “killed” or we would be without a sacrifice. It could only be changed or fulfilled so it would remain. If the sacrifice did not stand we would be without a covering.
I agree, of course. But, if Messiah is our Passover Lamb, why not celebrate that with an understanding of what it means to us? And also, just to clarify - these passages in Hebrews are speaking specifically to the sacrifices and priesthood. It is not speaking of all of God’s instructions to mankind (Torah).
I think when we are transformed by the Spirit of God we do, as a side effect, keep the law. If I am transformed and no longer have a desire to take what is not mine but, choose to give what I have instead then I will not steal. That means I would also outwardly, by the inward change, keep the commandment. I’m not trying to earn anything by the law. I think the fruits of the Spirit could also be equated with, or be summarized in the commandments - love Yehovah your God with all your heart, mind, soul and body and love your neighbor as yourself which, as I have stated, is the summation of Torah.
Oh, don’t worry about that, J. I feel that way sometimes and I’m not detoxing. I’m thankful for you and Auggy conversing with me on this so much.
The good news is that we’re all on the same path. Maybe not on the exact same stepping stone but, the same path. Blessings to you BOTE!
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
?
This is coming after a quote from Jeremiah 31:31-34, which says a lot.
What Law are we talking about here, anyway? There’s a lot of those.
It says that it’s “becoming” and “ready” to vanish… not that it has.
Yehovah didn’t get rid of the law that He’s talking about in Jeremiah. He continued it by putting his law in their minds and writing it on their hearts.
I’m talking of Yehovah’s instructions. His Torah. Law in this passage and in the context that I meant is the whole of God’s teachings. The word law used in Jeremiah 31:33 is Torah in Hebrew. Torah means instruction or teaching, which is derived from the root word Yarah, which means to throw, or point at something. So Torah gets its meaning from Yarah in the sense that by teaching, one is “pointing things out”.
We have the same concept in English in phrases like, “Just throwing that out for your consideration.” or “Pointing things out”
Not a single Christian I know has various Jewish rituals in their hearts, I assure you.
If you’re referring to the 613 laws, I have to strongly disagree. Half of that law is not valid due to the absence of judges, for one, and because Jesus invalidated half of it himself.
The only law I could imagine him writing anywhere is the absolute law that was included in the Torah - such as the Noahide laws, etc.
Which laws specifically are the ones that you say are Invalidated?
The food ones?
It seems to me that Jesus contrasted what He taught in “The Sermon on the Mount” with the Mosaic Law.
“It was said to you of old-time…, but I tell you…”
In one case, Jesus’ teaching was the exact opposite:
"You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Matthew 5:43-45 NASB)
I don’t know the source of the command to which Jesus referred. But it must have been a well-known command among the Hebrews.
Hi Paidon, I hope you’re well. My ideas have changed since first writing this (6 years ago!—wow!). But not significantly in substance. That said, I do agree with you that Jesus radically contrasted his elevated teachings with the teachings of Moses (and what was presumably a popular aberration: “hate your enemy”). I cannot recall Jesus ever criticizing Moses for Moses’ revelation though. Rather Jesus seems to take Moses as a great prophet, and not essentially mistaken for his time and mission, even if Moses’ teachings weren’t morally ideal and are no longer appropriate or mandatory for the universal brother/sisterhood that God (and Jesus) envisioned.