The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Fact Checking--Ancient Christian Schools Taught Universalism

If I understood Hansen correctly, he argued in his book about the first 500 years that though Justinian was incapable of suppressing universalism, he did contribute significantly to its demise:

he [Justinian] arbitrarily closed the schools in Athens, Alexandria and Antioch, and drove out the great church centers that theological science that had been its glory. He had “brought the whole empire under his sway and he wished in like manner to settle finally the law and the dogmatics of the empire.” To accomplish this evil work he found an aid in Rome, in a “characterless Pope (Vigilius) who, in gratifying the emperor covered himself with disgrace, and jeopardized his position in the Occident.” But he succeeded in inaugurating measures that extinguished the broad faith of the greatest fathers of the church. “Henceforth,” says Harnack, “there was no longer a theological science going back to first principles.” (www.fysis.cz/filosofiecz/texty/universalism.htm#292)

Hansen of course mentions other reasons why universalism almost disappeared. To me he seems to place the greatest emphasis on moral degradation of the church that didn’t care about people anymore and became more “practical”. I don’t reject that argument, it might be true. But I think it’s a claim that’s hard to prove and opponents of universalism will probably brush it off. Actually, I even read somewhere a kind of an opposite argument – that because morality was going down-hill theologians realized how naive universalism was. Now I don’t buy that argument, all I’m saying is that connecting a moral decline with condemnations of universalism and saying that universalism was condemned mainly because the majority of clergy were suddenly bad people is problematic.

What I think we’ve been discovering in this discussion is how complex and nuanced the development of ancient Christian views on hell was. We can’t fully explain what happened by pointing to Augustine, Justinian, and corrupt popes. I would add to the list of the main “culprits” Chrysostom whose frequent proclamations of endless hell influenced eastern Christians, but even so the development that took place is still very far from being explained. There were numerous individuals who played their part in suppressing universalism, they could’ve been simply corrupt, or just genuine admirers of Augustine and Chrysostom. In the west it was for example Fulgentius of Ruspe and Gregory the Great (both of these not only believed in endless torment, but even fully accepted that all unbaptized children will experience it, Fulgentius even wrote in To Peter on Faith that Christians should never doubt that even unborn miscarried babies must burn). We should also not forget Cyprian and Hilary who actually came before Augustine and advocated endless hell in many places. In the east I could name off the top of my head only John of Damascus who lived in the 7th/8th century. Here’s one quote of his:

everlasting life and everlasting punishment prove that the age or æon to come is unending. For time will not be counted by days and nights even after the resurrection, but there will rather be one day with no evening, wherein the Sun of Justice will shine brightly on the just, but for the sinful there will be night profound and limitless. In what way then will the period of one thousand years be counted which, according to Origen, is required for the complete restoration? (www.newadvent.org/fathers/33042.htm)

Now all the people mentioned were quite influential, but there were certainly many others who had a hand in this. Plus the doctrine of reserve, medicinal lies, purgatory (that could explain away references to the purifying fire), so-called Nestorians who were universalists separating from the imperial church, and a couple more factors… and maybe when we add all that together we’re getting close to explaining why things turned out as they did. So although I’d say Justinian played an important part, he was just an individual and no individual could single-handedly turn the tide. I mean, even if Augustine (who is perhaps the one most culpable for the spread of endless hell) didn’t attack universalism, endless torment may have still triumphed. It’s not like Augustine had significant influence in the Greek speaking world, and yet endless hell came on top even there.

1 Like

As for the council that condemned Origen, in my view it turned out to be a very successful anti-universalist move on the part of Justinian. Even if it was just a local council (which I grant though I haven’t researched it at all), very soon condemnations of Origen started to be associated with the ecumenical council and these condemnations started to be interpreted as precluding any universalism.

A good example of this is Sophronius of Jerusalem (560-638) who is considered a saint by Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox. In his synodical letter he wrote that the ecumenical council of 553 “condemned and threw out to destruction in the first instance the senseless Origen and all his dreamy pomposities, and his writings full of many kinds of impiety, and together with him the teachings of Evagrius and Didymus and all their pagan and monstrous, not to say fabulous, nonsenses.” In the same letter Sophronius also says that the Origenists “dream up, both godlessly and mythically, that all rational things were produced in a henad of minds, and they abuse the creation of waters above heaven, and want an end to punishment”. I copied those quotes long ago from the following source, pages 129 and 123 respectively which sadly seem to be no longer part of the preview: https://books.google.cz/books?id=_d0mx7Di1QkC&printsec=frontcover&#v=onepage&q&f=false But there is another quote from the book preserved here: https://classicalchristianity.com/2012/08/02/st-sophronius-on-universalism/ Sophronius clearly states there his belief in endless torment:

walking in the footsteps of our Fathers, we both speak of the consummation of the present world and believe that that life which is to come after the present life will last forever, and we hold to unending punishment; the former will gladden unceasingly those who have performed excellent deeds, but the latter will bring pain without respite, and also indeed punishment, on those who became lovers of what was vile in this life and refused to repent before the end of their course and departure hence.

The third Council of Constantinople (680-681) put its stamp of approval on the work quoted above as well as the saintliness of Sophronius:

We have also examined the synodal letter of Sophronius of holy memory, some time Patriarch of the Holy City of Christ our God, Jerusalem, and have found it in accordance with the true faith and with the Apostolic teachings, and with those of the holy approved Fathers. Therefore we have received it as orthodox and as salutary to the holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and have decreed that it is right that his name be inserted in the diptychs of the Holy Churches. (www.newadvent.org/fathers/3813.htm, Session XIII)

So let’s sum this up: Less than a hundred years after the ecumenical council of 553 Sophronius, an open proponent of endless torment, claims that the council condemned Origen one of whose heretical ideas was finite hell. Then, little less than 130 years after the council another ecumenical council officially agrees with Sophronius and declares he’s a saint. So even if Justinian originally only managed to have Origen condemned by a local council that did not specifically refer to universalism, in about a hundred years it became widely believed that Origen and universalism were ecumenically condemned.

So if Ramelli was right, I would conclude Justinian basically made the first step toward finally rooting out universalism from the church. Eternal torment advocates then quickly seized the opportunity and finished the job by misinterpreting what had happened, or even fabricating evidence to convince the Christendom that Origen and universalism are anathema. Whether the ecumenical council of 553 truly pronounced them anathema is irrelevant in a way. For many centuries, universalism and Origen were believed to be ecumenically condemned and for many Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox it’s unconceivable that millions of believers and thousands of saints could be wrong about such an issue for so long. Questioning whether universalism was condemned may for conservative believers be tantamount to questioning the reliability of their church’s tradition. Honestly, I would have to agree that a church which can be deceived for so long probably isn’t the one true church (but then again I’m not a Christian and don’t believe in any true church, so it doesn’t matter to me).

Either way, even today many, perhaps most Christians familiar with this controversy believe that universalism and Origen were ecumenically condemned. It may often be the case that what is presently believed about the past determines the present more than the actual past does. The Eastern Orthodox university professor whose lectures of patristics I attended this year once mentioned the current controversy over whether Origen was condemned or not and insisted that he was and that many councils confirm it. In his opinion “it is foolish to deny that and pretend to love Origen more than God does”. However, when I asked him whether Origen is in hell right now, he told us Origen is in Hades and that no soul’s fate is fixed before the last judgement. By the way, this same professor seems to view Augustine as a bigger heretic than Origen, though he grudgingly admits that Augustine holds a respected place in the church tradition.

Anyway, whatever was the original nature of the anti-Origenistic condemnation passed under Justinian, it has had significant consequences that can be felt even today.

As to whether Origen ever lied, I rather meant Gregory of Nyssa when I wrote that some were keeping back a portion of the truth. I believe I came across quotes of Origen that couldn’t be harmonized with universalism, but I can’t remember where. So maybe I’m wrong, or maybe he did lie sometimes. Origen’s words already quoted above seem most consistent with the hypothesis that he lied only occasionally: “a man on whom necessity imposes the responsibility of lying is bound to use very great care, and to use falsehood as he would a stimulant or a medicine”. So if Origen happens to contradict universalism in some sermon or homily, this passage explains why that is.

Oh, hold the same views you just expressed about how Universalism was snuffed out (not counting Nestorianism, of course). But I’d forgotten that Justinian played anymore a role than the local council. Thanks for that info. It’s been a while since I read Hansen. When I point out one cause, I never mean for that to be the only cause. There are many facets to what happened. Whether there was some orchestrated long-term effort by the Catholic heirarchy, I don’t know, but I don’t suspect there was. No evidence of it.

LOL That’s interesting. Thanks for the information.

I believe in universal restoration and pre-existence and Jesus, but I don’t really like to call myself a Christian because I’m not a fan of labels and the judgments that come along with them. I don’t like the idea of organized religion. It’s about relationship for me. People so easily get sucked into focusing on the religion and traditions and process to repress their shame instead of seeking relationship. Religion is supposed to point people to the relationship, and many do, but they usually also somehow manage to get people stuck on the religion instead. I don’t think it’s intentional. It makes a lot of sense to me that it happens that way. Religion, in my opinion, is a convention. It’s beliefs people share that usually put God in a box, and I’d others put God in the same box, then they group up and create a religion or denomination. There’s great division in that. Religion is like a wall between man and God. But it’s ideas, beliefs. It doesn’t actuality physically exist. So I simply took the wall away and look at it as just mankind and God. No wall to get through. I go to a non-denominational church, but I mostly go for the two men’s groups I go to throughout the week to hang out with other guys and help them out and share what I know or share insight, etc. They’re small groups with open discussion. So it’s about relationship with them and with God. That’s all.

That’s just my way of looking at things and doing things. Doesn’t mean I’m right or better than anyone else, of course. It’s just what I choose.

I only shared that because I’m about to ask you why you what you believe since you said something similar to what I believe: that there’s not really one true church so church history doesn’t really matter. I take the same stance. When I said Nestorians were probably the real Christians/Church, I misspoke. What I meant to say is that I think the Nestorians were closer to the truth than the Church after, let’s say, the 4th to 5th centuries. Didn’t mean there was a true church. I get in a hurry when I’m posting on here so I’m not taking the time, sometimes, to really use the right language. Gives the wrong impression sometimes.

So what is it you believe exactly?

1 Like

A year ago, I was an atheist, but now I’m… don’t know what exactly to be honest :smiley: I don’t believe Jesus was resurrected so I certainly don’t view myself as a Christian. I also am not a materialist because I don’t see how my mind could be material. And perhaps there is a conscious god who created our minds and is somehow always present in them.

But as for having a relationship with this god as you say – and as most Christians say – I don’t see how I could really have it. No god ever spoke to me, I have never seen him/her, I have never read anything written by him - when I read the Bible I get to know the people that wrote it, but no god. Perhaps I could love Jesus as he is represented in the Bible, but only because I can imagine him as a human. Still, it would be a one-way relationship, because the resurrected Jesus will never directly communicate with me (unless I’m another Saint Paul). But when I think of the holy spirit, I couldn’t love him because he’s immaterial. I couldn’t imagine him because that would be idolatry. Or am I to imagine him as a dove? :smiley:

I can be grateful to god, I can admire him, I can keep his commandments, but I can’t genuinely love him. He’s too intangible, too impersonal for that. Even if he’s a person, he doesn’t present himself that way to me, so I’m unable to truly love him. We can speculate that in the next life he might show himself more directly, but until then I can’t “love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, and mind.” I could love my spouse, my friend, or my child like that, but not God. I often hear that Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship. Christians say that as if it was a great thing. But if there really was a god who expected me to have a loving relationship with him in this life, to me it would feel like a death sentence. I’d say a religion that requires me to just worship a particular god would be more acceptable.

Now I don’t believe that if there’s a god, he wants me to love him like I would a person. It doesn’t seem like god is lonely and seeks our company. I know that some Christians say that our having a relationship with God helps us, not God. But frankly, I don’t feel like having a relationship with god would help me. I tried to have one for several years when I was a Christian and I don’t need to go through that again. I can feel something like a connection to god sometimes, but it’s just a feeling of peace, hope, not an interaction. Maybe Christians are being hyperbolic when they speak about having a relationship with God. Would you concede that your relationship to people is of a much more intense and personal nature than your relationship to God? Perhaps the word “relationship” is used by Christians rather ambiguously.

Sorry for the rant. I was happy to get this off my chest. I’ve been hearing this talk of a relationship with God for so long and wondering if I’m the only one to whom it doesn’t make sense. So maybe based on the reactions to this post I’ll find out if I’m crazy or not. :smiley:

So, Brian, to answer your question about my religious beliefs as best I can: Our minds are immaterial and there’s some other immaterial thing or being that keeps them in existence and may continue to do so when we die. This “god”, however, doesn’t want to be worshipped or loved. But I can’t help but be grateful. “God” has given us all and wants nothing in return. I have been freely given a very pleasant life on this earth as I believe most of us are given if we use it properly. We are to appreciate the gifts we undeservedly received and help those who have been given less. We should love one another, have genuine relationships with other people and ourselves. Gradually we discover what is harmful and helpful to all living beings. One day all beings will be good and happy if enough people work to make this world better. I’m not convinced “god” will make me immortal – if my mind is to disappear when my body dies, I still know I’ve been given so much and will not be wronged – but even if my consciousness dies, I can be happy now when I imagine the perfect future that will one day be accomplished. I hope I will contribute my infinitesimally small part to achieving that end.

Great reply! You’re honest, transparent, straightforward, and searching. You don’t just accept what church or society has told you—you actually look for answers yourself and think outside of the box when doing it. So you’re a lot farther along than a WHOLE lot of religious people.

I typed up a lot of my own story, but it’s too long to post here. You’ll probably find many similarities to your own story in it and my find some things that will help you in your search. I’ll PM it to you since it’s too long to post.