The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Theology Eschatology
#318

No Davo, I believe the Transfiguration and the Second Coming are two distinct events, one past, and one yet future.

Futurists like me believe that the theophany of Christ in his glory, on a mountain, with “angels” (messengers Moses and Elijah, and three disciples) was a foretaste, a prophetic foreshadowing, of his future glorious Second Coming, to a mountain, with angels (and with all his disciples, Rev. 19:14). Further, futurists believe the mountain of his return will be the same as the mountain of his departure, that is, the Mount of Olives, or Olivet (cf. Zechariah 14:4 and Acts 1:12).

Luke 9:26-29 (NIV)

Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray.

As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.

#319

Hi Dave, you asked:

How can reconciliation happen when only one side declares it?

The answer is that there is no way that it can. To try to avoid that fact by suggesting that the reconcilation between God and man is somehow different in meaning from the reconciliation between two people is but an ineffective device to support a theological position.

As for “conciliation,” that word can be a synonym for “reconciliation.” The Merriam-Webster Dictionary’s third definition of the word is: “to make compatible : reconcile” and gives as an example: “It is hard to conciliate the views of labor and management on this point.”

And now let’s examine carefully Paul’s teaching about reconciliation:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. (2 Cor 5:17-6:1 ESV)

Yes, God (through Christ) reconciled “us” to Himself. But who is this “us”? Does it refer to everyone in the world? By no means! It refers to us who are “in Christ” and who are “a new creation.” So because we ARE reconciled to Christ (On our part we have repented, have had a change of heart and mind about how we were living and have submitted to Christ and His commandments to us) we have been given the ministry of reconciliation—to lead others to repent and be reconciled to God also. So what is that message according to Paul? Is it to announce to them that they are already reconciled? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Our message to them is “We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” Read it. It’s right in the text. Why would we implore them to be reconciled to God if they already WERE reconciled?
“In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them.” the phrase “was reconciling” in a continuous tense. If it were an accomplished fact, why this tense of continuity? Yes God WAS reconciling the world, and God STILL IS reconciling the world, and will CONTINUE reconciling the world until each and every individual repents of his wrongdoing and submits to the Lordship of Christ.

Also, those of us who have been reconciled to God are being saved, not primarily from punishment, but from the evil itself in our lives—from SIN.

The angel of the Lord said to Joseph concerning his wife Mary:

She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins. (Matt 1:21 ESV)

The apostle Paul wrote:

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? (Rom 6:1,2 ESV)

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#320

For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them [“reckoning to them their trespasses,” YLT]. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. (NLT) 2 Cor. 5:19.

We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. (NIV) 2 Cor. 5:20.

I have to go with Davo (and Maintenanceman) on this one. :open_mouth:

To reiterate, I am a futurist, not a pantelist. I also lean toward the Christus Victor/Ransom position on the atonement, and believe that the lake of fire is lovingly purgative for those who do not receive Christ during their lifetime.

Yet I believe everyone is already reconciled to God by the death of Christ. Although, again, each person needs to be saved by the life of Christ:

Rom. 5:6-11
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

When did God demonstrate this love by dying for us? “While we were still sinners,” according to verse 8. When were we reconciled to God? Verse 10 says it was "while we were enemies” that He reconciled us to Himself through the death of the Son. Reconciliation happened before we believed.

As I commented earlier on this thread, alienation from God is in people’s minds:

The god of this age continues to blind people with his lies and accusations. However, the devil was disarmed at the cross, when his works dogma was nailed to it. Col. 2:14-15. Now we are to tell people that the dogma (the legalistic embellishments and threats mistakenly added to God’s communications by Moses, and others) was not from God; from God is only a free invitation to abundant life.

As “evangelical universalists,” we enjoy a better understanding of God’s true nature: that ALL will eventually be saved and make it to heaven—

-Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim. 2:4.

-The living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, and especially of those who believe. 1 Tim. 4:10.

-For as in Adam all die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive. 1 Cor. 15:22.

But, again, just what are people saved from? Lies. Captivity to a false identity.

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies IN YOUR MINDS because of [as shown by] your evil behavior. Colossians 1:21.

So, the problem is in people’s minds, not with God, never with God. People need to hear and understand the gracious invitation back to full life in Christ, their true identity.

So we are to tell people the good news, and implore them to be reconciled to God, since He is already reconciled to them.

#321

Hermano, I have to agree with Paidion on this one.

No offense, but you seem to be talking in circles. If you are still practicing evil, you are not reconciled to God. I would say that if you are reconciled to God then you are “saved”.

#322

I believe all people were reconciled to God through the death of Christ, according to my understanding of Romans 5:10—“For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!”

Repentance or faith in Christ does not cause God to be reconciled to us. His Son’s death did that. However, we are saved from sin, hell, and the lake of fire through changing our minds (repentance), accepting the good news of our reconciliation through the death of Christ, and being born again. Hence we then also become reconciled to God in our understanding.

So although it does indeed sound like “talking in circles,” there seems to be both the technical (or positional) aspect and the experiential aspect of reconciliation: our finally accepting the good news of God’s reconciliation to us in Christ (and being born again), in a real sense also equals our “being reconciled to God.”

Commentary on 2 Cor. 5 : 18-21 Reconciliation
#323

Hermano, did you read my post concerning this idea? Who are the “we” in the context? I showed from another passage on reconciliation that the “we” are those who have repented and submitted to God. Similarly here.

It doesn’t say, “If, while we were enemies,” it says “If being enemies.” The latter eliminates the confusion. The idea is that being enemies of God,without having performed acts of righteousness, we can still be reconciled to God. We didn’t do anything to earn this reconciliation. But we still need to repent and submit. We cannot be reconciled to God until we are willing to let go of our sinful lifestyle and begin to obey God’s law as revealed through Christ’s teachings (These are largely found in Matthew 5,6, and 7).

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Commentary on 2 Cor. 5 : 18-21 Reconciliation
#324

I think a possible confusion arises because we are Universalists; we are tempted to think that when Paul says things like “For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" the ‘we’ is referring to all mankind, whereas it is obvious - to me, anyway - he is speaking to Christian believers.
I can see no reason to believe that the world - all of mankind - is reconciled to God, unless some obscure meaning of ‘reconciled’ is put forth. Context! :sunglasses:

#325

I’d add also in the entire soul - mind, will, emotions - & in their spirit & nature.

#326

The “we” of Romans 5:10 is those of faith, not the world of unbelievers. The verse does not say reconciliation occurred at the moment of Christ’s death, but “through” His death.

Verse 9 says we (those of faith) have been justified by His blood. Was that without faith? No, it was conditional on faith:

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (Rom.5:1)

So likewise the reconciliation of verse 10 is conditional on faith.

#327

On the one hand we have clear evidence in Scripture that forgiveness of sins is conditional:

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Col.1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

1 Jn.1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Eph.1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 Jn.1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Acts 10:43 All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.

Lk.24:47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

On the other hand we have your statement of 2 Cor.5:19, which you claim as support for, but which makes no mention of, the forgiveness of sins, let alone an already accomplished unconditional forgiveness of all human beings sins - past, present and future.

So, obviously, i’m going to interpret the 2 Cor.5:19, which does not even mention forgiveness - let alone an unconditional forgiveness of all sins of all time - in light of clear passages above that refer to forgiveness and make it conditional.

Therefore, until you can (1) provide proof that your difficult passage, 2 Cor.5:19, is talking about all sins of everyone being forgiven and (2) that all the clear scriptures i’ve listed don’t mean what they say, your above quoted remark looks terribly lame.

#328

Hermano, you are being conveniently forgetful or evasive… the main text in view to which you AGREED with Origen is that of Mt 16:28 — to which as I pointed out IN CONTEXT IS the parousia, of which you yourself acknowledge is a distinct event apart from the transfiguration. The solid foundation of verse 27 proves beyond doubt to what verse 28 refers when it says… “reward each according to his works” — there is NO evidence here, as you say that such was… “referring to Peter, John, and James at the transfiguration of Jesus”, NONE whatsoever!

Not only that… there was NO threat of death upon or towards any of these disciples as ‘the church’ per sé was not even in existence at that time to experience ANY tribulation or persecution leading to death… NONE! An honest and logical reading of Mt 16:27-18 IS the Parousia, period.

No offense LLC… but what a load of croc! How often by your own standard, which no doubt much be fairly flexible, are you or have you been… on again—off again in your “reconciled/saved” status before God according to your own behaviouralism? Nah… doesn’t wash does?!

BINGO… you got that right.

DUN DUN… you got that wrong. Wrong only in that you conflate two passages that although referring to reconciliation the former IS speaking directly to believers WHEREAS the latter unequivocally ALSO references those beyond the believers’ circle.

You are welcome to swallow Paidion’s loopy logic, but here’s what you have…

IF “the world” of 2Cor 5:19 ONLY references “believers” i.e., Paidion’s “us” THEN welcome to the Calvinist Club! — that’s their argument.

No one denies the “we” of Rom 5:9-11 speaks to believers BUT to deny “the world” of _2Cor 5:19 speaks of anyone beyond believers is LAUGHABLE! Dave… can you honestly swallow that!?

Let’s put Paidion’s practice to the text. Let’s assume his/the Calvinist position is kosher… let’s arbitrarily apply his same principle to this famous evangelical text with this same odd, uncalled for and illogical twist — and there is NO scope for complaining or whining that his rule magically can’t or shouldn’t fit here…

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world of believers that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever of the believers believe in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life.

LOOPY! Not only that, but given you agree… apply your logic Dave back to 2Cor 5:19… HOW/WHY are “believers” being implored to be reconciled IF/WHEN they ALREADY were? You see… it’s a STUPID argument (world = believers) in the first place that WHEN with consistency is applied back to the rationale of those who peddle it destroys that very, if I may be so blunt, loopy logic.

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#329

Here is an alternate view, though apropos…

Thu, 04/04/2013 - 12:06 | Andrew Perriman
Eschatology
Hermeneutics and narrative
Here’s another example of how we can let theology or dogma get in the way of good biblical interpretation. Bill Mounce, whose mostly excellent exegetical notes I read from time to time, discusses the translation of Mark 13:29, which in the ESV reads:

So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates.
The problem that Mounce addresses is the translation of the phrase engus estin (“is near”). There is no pronoun in the Greek. If we supply “he”, as in the ESV, it appears to make Jesus say that the Son of Man will return within a single generation, which “of course, he didn’t”. This would leave us with what Mounce calls “one of the great conundrums in the gospels”.

The NIV, however, supplies “it”—”it is near”, referring, as Mounce sees it, not to the coming of the Son of Man but to the destruction of the temple. So if the interpreter does not want to entertain the possibility that Jesus got the timing of the end-of-the-world badly wrong, he or she may simply uncouple the train of the second coming from the caboose of the war against Rome and allow history to pull them further and further apart.
Mounce argues that the disciples’ question in Mark 13:4 is really two questions: i) What are the signs that the temple will be destroyed? and ii) What will be the signs preceding Jesus’ return? He suggests that verses 5-23 narrate events leading up to the destruction of the temple. Then, “in typical prophetic telescoping, Jesus skips thousands of years” so that verses 24-27 describe his return, before jumping back thousands of years to the destruction of the temple in verses 28-31, which was to happen within a generation, only to jump forwards once more to the second coming in the last paragraph of the chapter.

Now Mounce knows far more about New Testament Greek than I do, but it seems to me that he has preserved the dogmatically required reading at the expense of the narrative-historical integrity of the text.
The only reason to drive a massive temporal wedge into the text at this point is to protect the dogma that Jesus is still to return.1. The disciples ask Jesus two questions: i) When will these things be? and ii) What will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished? In both questions “these things” can only refer to the events leading up to the destruction of the temple. In Matthew, it is true, the disciples distinguish between the destruction of the temple and the parousia of Jesus at the close of the age (Matt. 24:3). But Matthew emphatically connects the vision of the Son of Man coming on the clouds with the Roman invasion of Judea: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days…” (Matt. 24:29). Mark also has “in those days, after that tribulation” (13:24). The only reason to drive a massive temporal wedge into the text at this point is to protect the dogma that Jesus is still to return.

  1. Luke makes explicit what is near—the kingdom of God:
    And he told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. As soon as they come out in leaf, you see for yourselves and know that the summer is already near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Luke 21:29–33)
    Would Mounce want to say that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple constituted the coming of the kingdom of God and exclude from that the kingdom motif of the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and glory? Notice that earlier Mark linked the coming of the Son of Man in the glory of his Father and the coming of the kingdom of God with power as events that would take place within a generation:
    For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. … Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power. (Mk. 8:38–9:1)
    Prophetic telescoping is an invention of Christian exegetes.3. We don’t find the sort of “prophetic telescoping” in the Old Testament that would provide a plausible precedent for Mounce’s interpretation of Jesus’ teaching here. Prophetic telescoping is an invention of Christian exegetes. The prophets describe future historical events—judgment on Israel, judgment on the nations. They may generate hopes that are not fulfilled in the actual historical circumstances, as things turn out, but that is not what we have with Mounce’s reading of Jesus’ apocalyptic discourse. Mounce argues that Jesus speaks in a very confusing manner about two distinct events, separated—as things turn out—by goodness knows how many thousands of years.

  2. Mounce has to give a much better explanation of why the discourse is constructed in this chronologically chaotic fashion. The literary signals all work against it, and it removes the climax from the detailed and clearly important account of the tribulation of the coming years. Is it really plausible to argue that Mark’s readers would not have read it as a single, coherent apocalyptic narrative? It makes much better literary and theological sense to suppose that the coming of the Son of Man is conceived as an “event” of climactic significance for the communities of disciples that had to go through the tribulation described in 13:5-23.

  3. The imagery of the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory points to the expectation that at a time of national crisis for Israel a persecuted individual or community would be vindicated and given authority to rule. Jesus will make this point to Caiaphas: “you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven” (Mk. 14:62). The destruction of the temple provides exactly the right historical context for the fulfilment of such an expectation. The coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven is not an end-of-the-world event. The imagery of cosmic disorder—sun and moon darkened, stars falling, powers shaken—is standard prophetic-apocalyptic language for political crisis.
    The final point to make, briefly, is that this is not a matter of taking away from traditional dogma. It is about recovering narrative-historical perspective. It is the same as with the Jesus is Lord / Jesus is God debate. Even if the orthodox affirmation is “correct” in some way, it too often diverts attention from the much more important and fundamental argument that the New Testament is attempting to put forward.
    In this case, I don’t think that the orthodox affirmation is “correct” in some way. I don’t think that the New Testament presents the coming of the Son of Man in clouds as an end-of-the-world event—the final judgment and renewal of creation is stated in quite different terms. But that is not simply an argument for an alternative eschatological schema. It is an argument for grasping the concrete, historical grounding of the story of God’s people, for understanding the theological force of historical events, and for affirming the historical immediacy of God’s saving action on behalf of a faithful suffering community.

Dave, I hope you have had time to skim the Russell book, it is quite enlightening! :smile:

Peace.

#330

Let me show where I distinguish between what relates to the past Transfiguration of Christ and the yet future Second Coming of Christ, in the three parallel accounts:

Matthew 16:27-17:2

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. [The Second Coming]

28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” [The Transfiguration]

After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. [The Transfiguration]

Mark 8:38-9:2

“For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” [The Second Coming]

And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.” [The Transfiguration]

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. [The Transfiguration]

Luke 9:26-29

“For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels. [The Second Coming]

“But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.” [The Transfiguration]

Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. [The Transfiguration]

#331

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Romans 5:10-11.

I would draw a distinction between everyone having been reconciled to God through the death of Christ, and a Christian personally receiving the understanding of his reconciliation—by receiving the truth, Jesus.

Let me take it a step further: in a similar vein, consider the concept of someone’s co-crucifixion with Christ. I will paraphrase Dr. Steve McVey (a Trinitarian friend of The Shack author Wm. Paul Young, and of Dr. Baxter Kruger):

Who was included included in the co-crucifixion? only believers? or does this act of Jesus on the cross include everybody?

The Bible answers this clearly. “The love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf” (2 Corinthians 5:14-15). For whom did Jesus die? Twice in this text, Paul wrote that He died for all.

Does all really mean everybody? The question is, did Jesus die for all types of people or for each and every person? I believe the latter to be the case. The Scripture says, “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man” (Hebrews 2:9 KJV). He didn’t just die for all kinds of people.

Jesus tasted death for every person. Look again at the verse in 2 Corinthians 5. “One died for all.” Who is the One who died for all? That’s Jesus. Who are the all? That’s everybody.

Paul goes on to say, “Therefore all died.” Is it the same all? Of course it is. The verse clearly teaches that the same ones for whom Jesus died are the ones who died with Him. Jesus died for Adam’s race, and that same race (humanity) died with him.

What He accomplished on the cross is real regardless of whether we know it or believe it. You and your decision didn’t cause your co-crucifixion with Christ. Jesus and His finished work accomplished that. Let’s not say we believe that everything is centered in the cross and then turn around and contend that the cross means nothing until we believe it. Let the credit rest where it belongs—on Jesus.

Does this then mean everybody is a Christian? No, it doesn’t. A Christian is a believer in Jesus Christ. Rather, it means that the success of the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross doesn’t depend on human beings casting a vote in His favor. When He cried out, “It is finished,” He meant it. There is nothing we need to do to deal with the problem of sin. Jesus has already done it. All need only to believe it and receive it so that our experience aligns with the eternal reality of His successful work on our behalf.

Our sins and our sinful nature were both crucified with Him that day. We aren’t included in the crucifixion of Jesus at the moment we believe. “I have been crucified with Christ” regardless of whether I have faith in Him. My belief doesn’t make it real. Humanity’s co-crucifixion with Jesus on the cross is real whether we believe it or not. Watchman Nee wrote, “It is the inclusive death of the Lord which puts me in a position to identify myself, not that I identify myself in order to be included. It is God’s inclusion of me in Christ that matters.” Which, then, is the correct order?

Do we believe and then become included in His death, or we are included and then believe? Nee rightly answers that we are not included because we believe. We believe because we are included, and that is what matters. Faith doesn’t make it happen. We died with Jesus, and the old Adamic nature was destroyed. It happened! We all died with Him—that’s a historical fact regardless of whether we have faith. Faith doesn’t manufacture anything. It simply sees what already exists and is real whether we see it or not. We all died with Jesus, and that is a fact.

#332

Well just a dang minute, davo. :wink: (the smiley face emoji does not seem to show)
5.18 God has reconciled US to Himself - that is, the apostles
5.19 he gave US, the apostles, the ministry of reconciliation - to minister the truth of reconciliation to those that need it- is to share that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself.
5.20 He is still describing his ministry - we implore on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. The word ‘you’ is not, as far as I can tell, in the originals.Is that correct? We implore, that is what we do, whomever we can, whomever needs to be reconciled

With me so far? It makes sense to me thinking of it like that.

#333

Really? Our sinful nature is dead - what, does it come back alive now and then? If you are not struggling against the flesh (human nature), then a whole bunch of scripture says you are on the wrong track.If ‘crucified’ sinful nature means DEAD sinful nature, we have a NT full of errors.

#334

Thanks Chad, once again very interesting.
It has become pretty clear to me the past week, as I try to get a better grasp of FP and beyond, that equating, in some contexts at least, the ‘world’ with the OC system, is to make certain FP conclusions inexorable.
Doing that equating feels very forced to me. When I see some verses that look straightforwardly like they are talking about the World - the shared world, the entire human community - when I see these verses quoted and in parentheses the explanation that it is OT and OC that is being discussed - I get uneasy. It all fits IFF we first give creedance to that equating. Without that, I don’t see how FP and beyond! - can work.
No doubt I need much more study.

#335

Let me go further. I think that on this day in April 2018, all people are in two places at once: here within linear time (be it on earth, or down in hell, or up in some aspect of heaven), and also “seated with Christ” somewhere outside linear time, that is, in eternity.

As an evangelical universalist, I believe everyone will eventually receive Christ, and we will all graduate together from this classroom of time, into eternity. And yet we are all already there.

#336

I understand you HAVE TO read it that way to avert the apparent problem of “some standing here”… BUT your interpretation above is the most unnatural reading of the text. You STILL have NOT shown how in the transfiguration said apostles received their rewards — the evidence shows the most obvious, natural and logical reading verses 27-28 to be together and thus pertinent to the parousia.

Further… the transfiguration was NOT Jesus aka “the Son of Man *coming in his kingdom.” Jesus did NOT come in his kingdom in the transfiguration, cf. Lk 22:28-30.

Hermano… please demonstrate from the text/s where “each was rewarded” at the transfiguration, as Jesus’ “Assuredly” links not only the two verses as a single unit but thereby indelibly the subject matter at hand. The subsequent… “Now after six days…” is a different scenario completely.

Sure… you could claim the text is simply wrong, or that whoever recorded Jesus misheard him and duly misrepresented his words etc. These lame and unconvincing diversions have been tried before, admittedly not from you, but either way you slice it, IF you didn’t have an internal conflict between what the text actually and CLEARLY says AND certain doctrinal propositions brought to the text THEN you wouldn’t go down this unconvincing jumbled path.

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#337

BUT Dave… THAT’S NOT what you were saying up the page where you held the “we” of Rom 5:9-10 equates to the “us” of 2Cor 5:18 (no problem so far) BUT THEN advocate that “the world” of 2Cor 5:19 must also needs be, be speaking of believers… HOW LONG have you believed that? Not only that but you’ve completely walked away from the obvious that you then have believers appealing to believers IF, I repeat IF… the world of vs. 19 speaks of believers.

How you can keep a straight face I’m not sure??