Hermano, I don’t believe in the once saved always saved theory. Sin is sin. Whether you are a believer or an unbeliever when you sin you are not in harmony with God, and you will be chastised for it. If you say you believe and still practice evil, then your belief is basically lip service. Yes, you can backslide. As in the parable of the sower and the seed, “Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. The ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root and in time of temptation fall away…” and so on. As for what, Steve Mcvey says in the article you presented, I don’t believe a word of it. You can’t pull the wool over my eyes by twisting the words of the bible. This is why the pages are filled with warnings about false prophets. The Jewish law may have been taken out of the way with the destruction of the Jerusalem in 70 A.D., but as we read in Revelation, the churches were already going astray. The rise of the Roman Catholic Church made the Pharisees and Sadducees look like pussycats.
I am charismatic, and believe that dreams, visions, and revelations, as well as signs, wonders, and miracles, are still for today. Yet there are also very serious warnings against false signs and wonders (Mt. 24:24, Mk. 13:22, Rev. 19:20). So, yes, there are deceiving spirits, and hence, false prophets. But there is also a gift of “discernings of spirits” (1 Cor. 12:10 YLT) still available today.
As a futurist, I personally believe that the spirit of antichrist is powerfully at work to bring religious and materialistic people together in an ecumenical unity not based on truth. And that a literal Babylon will eventually be reestablished in Iraq as a commercial and religious center (compare, for example, Zech. 5:5-11 and Rev. 18).
But I think Steve McVey is pretty right on, even thought he is neither a charismatic nor a universalist. And I no longer believe a genuine Christian can lose his salvation. Here is a verse that greatly helped me to rest in the permanency of my salvation, in spite of my ups and downs:
“For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.” Colossians 3:3.
Zechariah 5:5-11 (NIV)
The Woman in a Basket
5 Then the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, “Look up and see what is appearing.”
6 I asked, “What is it?”
He replied, “It is a basket.” And he added, “This is the iniquity of the people throughout the land.”
7 Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman! 8 He said, “This is wickedness,” and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed its lead cover down on it.
9 Then I looked up—and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth.
10 “Where are they taking the basket?” I asked the angel who was speaking to me.
11 He replied, “To the country of Babylonia [Hebrew Shinar] to build a house for it. When the house is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.”
Revelation 17:4 (NIV)
Babylon, the Prostitute on the Beast
4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.
Hermano, Again, Mcvey speaks in circles. I think too much philosophy addles one’s brain and knocks the common sense right out of it.
First, he says all are reconciled whether we believe it or not, then goes on to say that one needs only to believe to be aligned with God. What is this?
The last time I checked, people still sin, and man is still trying to rule the world according to his own ways.
Yes, there is . We are told to put it away, and follow God.
I agree, faith alone doesn’t manufacture anything, that’s why James says faith without works is dead.
However, his second statement is odd. I can have all the faith I want to; that I’m going to build Disneyland. But, if I don’t get busy and build it, it doesn’t exist in the reality of this world.
Hermano - what is your interpretation of ‘reconciled’? I’m trying to get a better handle on it myself.
Yet the Bible also says we are already complete in Jesus (Col. 2:10); so good works are not necessary to be complete.
Oddly, the Bible says we are to labor to enter the Sabbath Rest (Heb. 4:11)—a rest in which we are to rest from our works, as God did from His (4:10). It also says that the entrance into that rest is by believing (4:3)! I would suggest that the “labor” being referred to is: to say “no” to doing to enter, and to say “yes” to believing in order to successfully enter, and remain in, that rest.
Along the same lines, the Bible says that we are to ‘bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ’ (2 Cor. 10:5). Again, Jesus has already done it all. We are simply to freely receive, and then to freely give (Mt. 10:8).
We have to resist trying to add to Christ’s finished work, and just rest in it. This will lead to good works as a result of grace (1 Cor. 15:10).
As McVey said, “Let’s not say we believe that everything is centered in the cross and then turn around and contend that the cross means nothing until we believe it. Let the credit rest where it belongs—on Jesus.”
He means we are to renew our minds (Romans 12:2) with the truth of the finished work of Christ, in order to “be aligned” to successfully receive and enjoy all the benefits of “It is finished” (Jn 19:30).
As the Father (God) said to his older son in the story of the Prodigal:
“All that I have is yours” (Lk 15:31).
Strong’s G604 “RECONCILE”: apokatallassō (ah pah kah tah LAH soh)—
“To bring back to a former state of harmony.”
I think that sin and Satan have gotten between us and God. But,
“It was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him [Christ], and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.” Colossians 1:19-20.
Dave, as I have shared previously, I lean toward the Christus Victor/Ransom Theory of the Atonement. And on another thread, I said, in part:
I guess my stumbling block is: Through this reconciling, God did not change his attitude toward humans, right? And as far as I can tell, humans in general have not changed their attitude toward God.
So if neither has changed their attitude, nothing has changed, except for those who by grace have been saved by faith, a gift from God. THOSE are reconciled. THAT is what Paul was appointed to be a minister of.
I don’t see any way past that reasoning. Do you?
As for our old nature being crucified - the word in Ro. 6.6 is ‘our old MAN (not ‘self’ - see the Greek) was crucified’ - I think that is a Paulinism for Adam.
We read in the ESV:
…you have been filled in him…
That little Greek word “εν” does not always mean “in.” It sometimes means “with.”
Perhaps it should be translated, “You are filled with Him.” But to be filled with Christ does not imply that we are sinless. If we are not sinless, then we are not complete.
Paul indicates that the good work that God is doing in us, is a process, and will be completed in the day of Christ after He returns:
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Hermano, yes, Jesus did it all. He was complete in God because he walked according to the Spirit and was obedient to His word.
No. We aren’t complete in Jesus until we walk according to the Spirit, as he did. Hebrews 6:12 says “Imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”
Yepper he loves em all
No, we are still the free will creatures he meant us to be
You keep contradicting your self. Those who by grace have been saved by faith is merely an acknowledgement of what our God did through the messiah, to his people, and thus to the nations as a whole.
When someone realizes that God has done a great deed in their life, they become… well maybe grateful and want to tell others and their life is changed and their outlook becomes better. They become part of the solution as opposed to part of the problem.
Simple but complex…
Faith is merely an acknowledgement? Scripture seems to associate it with such things as repentance, confession & freewill & oppose it to things such as being stubborn & an - evil - heart of unbelief. Compare:
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
MM - I don’t think that I am contradicting myself, at least in this case. What I wrote makes, I believe, all the sense in the world.
Might it be that…hmmm…we see things differently?
Let’s go this at a different way,
Those who have been changed by grace there and then where those who were there.
You continue to push the verbiage of the NT to mean US as in you and me.
And that is alright, but I contend that the NT verbiage has little to do with us. ‘You and me here’.
But that is the big overcomer to at least possibly consider if you want to realize the possibility of a different view.
Yep, that’s where we differ.
And another difference - I don’t have a need to see things differently. I’m always open to being challenged, but it takes a lot to move me.
Bless you my brother!!
Dave, to take a step back for a moment… what exactly are you assuming (apparently to you) this “attitude” entailed? Whatever you are possibly thinking his attitude was, HOW are you thinking such didn’t or hasn’t changed? Again, what are you conceiving this to be?
I’m not that deep, davo.
My only concern was/is - I cannot get a good answer - and I’ve been looking around - as to the nature of the reconciliation in question.
Most sources stress that God did not need to be reconciled to the world. Do you agree?
That’s the first step I’d like to see get cleared up.
Then we could go on from there. Thanks for taking the time to consider it!
Ok… so this is where you have me confused. You have a or the primary source, i.e., the very words of Paul — and without any other source influencing otherwise, reads quite directly, as per the actual text.
So WHY appeal to lesser or IMO inferior sources? And… WHO are these sources and on what grounds are you giving them superiority over Paul and his rather straightforward claim? AND IF you are saying it’s not straightforward… is it the text that apparently indicates this or some other “authority” you are measuring the Scripture by?
I fully agree! When it comes to the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse .
If it didn’t happen around 70 AD, with a conspiracy to cover it up.
And if we should interpret folks having these visions as literal, rather than symbolical - of a deeper meaning.
And if I’m stuck here when it happens…akin to being in the AMC shows, The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead.
Thne I’ll probably be singing the song at Eddie Rabbit “Driving My Life Away”. This will “definitely move me.”
“One thing I’ve found… the road rarely rises up to meet you until you’ve begun walking.”-- Michele Jennae
Good news Randy… I can put your active mind to rest — there was absolutely NO zombie apocalypse relative to the AD70 parousia, and thus no conspiratorial cover up.
You may however have a case for AD30, as per…
Mt 27 51:53 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.)