The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Theology Eschatology
#386

Where have i ever inferred the Apostle Paul “tells a lie”?

Col.1:19 for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell,
20 and through Him to reconcile all **to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens. (CLV)

** into, Greek EIS

God has purposed by Christ “to reconcile all to Him” (Col.1:20). (The verse does not say He has already “reconciled” (past tense) all). Reconciliation of all is His purpose which involves “making peace through the blood of the cross” (v.20) as well as being accomplished “by Him” (v.20) which is twice repeated in the verse for emphasis. The reconciliation of all is not already completed, but ongoing. Verses 21-23 indicate examples of reconciliation occurring after (not at) the cross and that it is conditional on faith.

Verse 21 describes “the opposite of reconciliation - the state we were in before we were reconciled”:

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.

Verse 22 says “now” He has reconciled you. If reconciliation had occurred on the cross circa 30 AD, which Scripture nowhere affirms, then how is it that Paul says it occurred “now”, which was decades after 30 A.D.?

Also the word “to” in “to reconcile” (v.20) is EIS, which KJV most often renders “into”. With “into” v.20 would say “and by Him to reconcile all INTO Himself”. Given that unbelievers are not in Christ - if this rendering of EIS is accurate - that phrase in v.20 could not yet be fulfilled & would have to be realized in the future. Compare BDAG’s note:

“…found only in Christian writers…reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20…” (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

Peace via the blood of the cross comes by faith, not unconditionally & without belief:

Rom.5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Rom.3:25a God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood

“…Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to “reconcile to himself all things”? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony.”

“…The “all things” of verse 20 is as extensive as the “all things” of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill “the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure”—“to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ” (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind’s depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God.”
http://blogs.christianpost.com/ambassador-of-reconciliation/reconciliation-the-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-7138/

“ἀποκαταλλάσσω is found in the NT only in Col. and Eph., where καταλλάσσω does not occur. Since it is never found prior to Paul, it is perhaps coined by him…In men [it] is preceded by alienation and enmity (Col.1:22)…Col.1:20 speaks of the gracious purpose which God had demonstrated…to reconcile the whole world to Himself; it does not speak of a reconciliation of the world already concluded. ἀποκαταλλάξαι cannot refer merely to the removal of a relationship of guilt by God, since it is plainly expounded as a conclusion of peace in Col.1:20 and Eph.2:15. Hence it is not something one-sided. It embraces the total life situation of man. It does not refer merely to his guilt before God. In Eph.2:16 reconciliation to God also brings reconciliation to Jews and Gentiles, and in Col.1:20 the reconciliation of men to God also carries with it that of supraterrestrial beings” (The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.1, p.258-259, Friedrich Buschel, ed. Gerhard Kittel, 1st printing 1964, 2006).

“apokatallasso…604…“to reconcile completely” (apo, from, and No.1), a stronger form of No. 1, “to change from one condition to another”, so as to remove all enmity and leave no impediment to unity and peace, is used in Eph.2:16, of the “reconciliation” of believing Jew and Gentile “in one body unto God through the Cross”; in Col.1:21 not the union of Jew and Gentile is in view, but the change wrought in the individual believer from alienation and enmity, on account of evil works, to “reconciliation” with God; in v.20 the word is used of the divine purpose to “reconcile” through Christ “all things to Himself…whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens”, the basis of the change being the peace effected “through the blood of His Cross.” It is the divine purpose, on the ground of the work of Christ accomplished on the cross, to bring the whole universe…into full accord with the mind of God, Eph.1:10.” (Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1996, p.514).

“The vb. ἀποκαταλλάσσω occurs for the first time in Gk. lit. in Col.1:20,22 and Eph.2:16… where the response of faith is absent, personal reconciliation has not been realized” (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis (NIDNTTE), Vol.1, p.248, Moises Silva, Revision Editor, 2014).

"The passage may well be Paul’s adaptation of a christological hymn, reflecting Jewish beliefs about angels and cosmic powers (cf E. Lohse, Colossians and Philemon, Hermeneia, 1971, 59 [etc]…). Within this cosmic context is set the reconciliation of believers (Col.1:21 f.). But it should be noted that the reconciliation is conditional on continuing in the faith (Col. 1:23) (The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDTT], Vol.3, Editor Colin Brown, 1978, p.172).

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)…(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).

#387

To revisit that particular passage:

Colossians 1:20-22 (NKJV)
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

So, the reconciliation came “now” in the body of His flesh through death, and not according to our later individual repentance or faith.

As Davo has been saying, 1) there is God having already been reconciled to all of us, and 2) there is us needing to be reconciled to God, through repentance, that is, through changing our minds and believing this wonderful news.

Here is that relevant passage:

2 Cor 5:19-20
19 For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them [“reckoning to them their trespasses,” YLT]. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. (NLT)
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. (NIV) 2 Cor. 5:20.

Again, individual reconciliation (return to harmony) from us to God is not realized until we change our minds; without repentance, people remain enemies in their minds, when in fact, God does not consider anyone His enemy—and never has. God is love.

#388

Let’s look at this verse realistically. “For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell…” There is an infinitive here. “It pleased the Father that all the fullness to dwell in Him.” What else pleased the Father? “To reconcile all things to Himself by Him.”—another infinitive. This does NOT imply that the Father has already reconciled all things to Himself, but rather that it pleased Him to bring this about through Christ. This is a process that has already begun, and will some day be completed.

In the following verse, the “you” is plural:

…he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Phillipians 1:6)

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#389

I have heard it said that even ‘repentance’ is a WORK and is 'adding to the finished work of Christ.
Ok, by ‘reconciled’ do you mean that all the world’s sins are forgiven, even without faith in Christ (since according to M. Williams - it is not our faith that saves us, it is the faith of Christ)? Does ‘reconciled’ to you mean God is just pleased with mankind now? Does reconciled mean that there is no further sin, and even if there is, that it is already forgiven? War, torture, rape, greediness, sloth - are all still in the world and perhaps could be said to be on the increase. But Christ’s work is done? Is that reconciliation? If not, what IS IT?

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#390

Hermano, I’m not clear what category you are putting the reconciliation of verse 21, KJV (which occurs in v.22 in most bible versions not called KJ). Do you see reconciliation there as objective (completed at the cross circa 30 AD) or experiential, i.e. what you call the reconciliation needed & obtained through repentance & faith?

Aside from Scripture nowhere stating a mysterious reconciliation occurred on the cross, the Bible speaks of reconciliation occurring after the cross, so to hold to your POV you have to imagine at least two different types of reconciliation. Furthermore, the very word speaks of a restored relationship, yet if this occurred on the cross there would be no need for any further reconciliation since it would have already been a done deal, as in “It is finished”. It would be pointless to urge people to “Be reconciled to God”. Instead, the message would be - you are already reconciled to God…just believe it. But clearly we see a world that has not been reconciled to God.

Moreover, if this objective reconciliation c. 30 AD was true & everyone’s sins forgiven for all time (extreme hyper grace), this is in opposition to a list of texts stating forgiveness is conditional. I take the view that such clear texts should be the standard by which to interpret whether or not the extreme hyper grace position is valid.

#391

Other than just stating it as so and thereby building your entire argument as given, your argument shows a basic lack of understanding of that infinitive mood whereby IF we apply your notion of… “a process that has already begun” THEN the Father’s indwelling of the Son was ALSO according to your logic, ‘a process that has already begun.’ Where and when therefore does your theology allow that indwelling process to come to completion? in the Day of Jesus Christ??

These Greek infinitives… to dwell / to reconcile — are concrete statements, NOT shifting sands!

#392

Interesting that you bring up Mike…

Yes God HAS forgiven sins without faith in Christ, and can and will forgive without repentance,

I assume we will be at war.

#393

Not with me. I’m out of this discussion now.
No hard feelings on my side; in fact, I’ve learned a lot even from my brothers-in-arms. :wink:
But I see no need for further wrestling.
Cheers.

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#394
#395

That’s it, bro. Differences aside, fighting for what is good and true and beautiful!
What a GREAT song.

#396

DaveB

11m

That’s it, bro. Differences aside, fighting for what is good and true and beautiful!
What a GREAT song.
we’ll work it out.

thanks

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#397

I disagree. I think Scripture somewhere does state reconciliation occurred on the cross, in one of the very passages under discussion above, Colossians 1:20-22, specifically,

“yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death”

DaveB

-I do not believe that “repentance,” with the interpretation of changing one’s mind, could be considered a work.

-I would not say God is “pleased” with mankind now, but that He totally loves every last person, even the most vile sinner. (For the reason that He is love.)

-With the idea of “reconciliation” meaning “to bring back to a former state of harmony,” we would say Creation became “out of harmony” with God through the angels’ sin, followed by man’s sin. But Jesus has rescued us from the disharmony; now it is a matter of us hearing, believing, receiving, and re-harmonizing with God:

Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. Hebrews 2:14-15.

-As to “sin,” there are so many words in Hebrew and Greek translated “sin” or “iniquity,” with definitions like “a lapse or deviation from truth and uprightness,” or, “to miss the mark.” But consider “iniquity” in Isaiah 53:6,

“We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

Here the Hebrew word translated “iniquity” is avon (ah VONE). Strangely, it can mean both sin, and the “punishment” or “consequence” of sin! Since I think God’s nature is never vindictive, I will go with sin and its consequence. (Satan & Friends are also still right there to both tempt into sin, and then to legalistically hand out deadly consequences–at least to those ignorant that those powers have been disarmed and have no authority, Col. 2:13-15.)

In the “Divine Exchange” described in Isaiah 53, the prophet foresaw that the Messiah would TAKE our sins—and their consequences of suffering, and GIVE us his shalom (ָלוֹםשׁ), variously translated as “health,” “prosperity,” “friendship,” “safety,” “contentment,” and “peace,” among others.

As to our part in re-harmonizing, the Divine Exchange must be appropriated by faith; and I would argue that “faith,” like everything from God, is a gift which must be freely received from the Author of faith, Jesus.

-Yes, iniquity does seem to be on the increase in the world, but Christ’s work is done. “It is finished.” Step by step, the Creation is being re-harmonized to God:

He told them another parable. “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was ALL leavened.” Mt. 13:33.

As an evangelical universalist, I believe that this world is a classroom, a very terrible classroom, but that we will ALL graduate from time, and into eternity, together, when that last and slowest student receives Christ.

#398

I think my study of Hellenistic Greek formally for several years, and informally for over twenty, qualifies me to understand the infinitive mode.

It is talking about Jesus’ time on earth when He was fully human. God began to indwell Him, probably right at His birth—or at least by the time He was 12 years old. That indwelling ceased with His death. After God raised Him from the dead—Yes that means raised from DEATH—He became a life-giving Spirit again as the divine Son of God—became again what He was prior to His incarnation—the divine everlasting Son of God—He who was once begotten before all ages as the first of God’s acts. He didn’t need to be indwelt by God after His resurrection from death. For He was again the divine Being in the form that He had been prior to His incarnation—another exactly like His Father—the exact image of the Father’s essence. (Hebrews 1:3)

#399

From where did you formally study your double Greek or Koine Greek… a “bible college” or a university accredited ‘theological college’ — or some other?

#400

I successfully passed my first year of Greek at the Winnipeg Bible College, with a mark of 96%, and then I repeated first year Greek (because I wanted to get a better handle on it) at St. John’s Anglican College, a college that forms part of the University of Manitoba, with a mark of 93%. This was followed by second year Greek at St. John’s Anglican College where I studied New Testament writings in Greek, as well as other writings in Hellenistic Greek. The exam required translation of unfamiliar writings visually, using no aids. I achieved a mere 75%.

#401

Well…if the Zombie Apocalypse… is really the most probable, end-times tribulation model - as I propose. They are probably the SLOWEST and the LAST. :rofl:

#403

That says “now He has reconciled”, not “on the cross He reconciled”.

The “body of His flesh” could refer to 55 AD, 555 AD or 5555 AD.

The phrase “through death” could refer to a death related to the believer, e.g. the death of the old man, or that the “now” reconciliation required Christ’s death, not that it occurred at the moment of His death.

It seems we have clear evidence in Scripture that reconciliation & forgiveness of sins is conditional, not already accomplished on the cross:

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Col.1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

1 Jn.1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Eph.1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 Jn.1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Acts 10:43 All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.

Lk.24:47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

#404

Thank you.

Well realistically… with all due respect to whoever instructed you in NT Greek, they would be turning in their grave at this blatant false claim regarding “the infinitive” relative to Col 1:19-20. NOWHERE I repeat NOWHERE does “the infinitive” render “a process” as you wrongly claim. The infinitive is results orientated and speaks to PURPOSE and not process, i.e., definitive action. Example:

Mt 20:19 and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.”

To mock / to scourge / to crucify — all in the infinitive… indicative as to what was to occur or result (for the purpose of) Jesus being delivered up.

Had Paul wanted to say… “He is reconciling all things to Himself” as your theory suggests he would well have inserted the Greek ἐστιν <estin> = IS, and likewise used either the present or possibly the perfect tense throughout… he did neither; but employing rather the aorist which indicates an action as having occurred at one point in time, past with indefinite results, i.e., such was a set PURPOSE.

Let me quote with highlights…

Reconciliation is the word used in the NT to describe the changed relations between God and man which are the result of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. To reconcile is the distinctive activity of God himself, and the world of man is the object of reconciliation. … As in other passages the source of reconciliation is the love of God,… Reconciliation is thus an act rather than a process by which men are delivered from a condition of estrangement and restored to fellowship with God; the act is accomplished by God through the power of the sacrificial death of Christ.

A Theological Word Book Of The Bible (1956 p.185) F.J. Taylor, M.A., Principle of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford

For your consideration…

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#405

The following link is to a master’s thesis written by an Ethiopian scholar, centering on understanding God’s reconciliation through an exhaustive exegesis of the 2 Cor. passages mentioned above.
The fascinating thing about it is the writer’s application of the truth of reconciliation to the various conflicts in Ethiopia between factions, tribes, church sects, which he knows by personal experience.
He is meticulous writer with a real understanding of the issues. This is a long, scholarly thesis.

#406

I posted short commentary by IVP earlier today in a new thread. I think there is much more common ground than I thought on this subject.
From that post: "Two things need to be noted. First, the verb is passive. It is not that we must reconcile ourselves to God—as would be the case with the Greeks or Romans vis-à-vis their gods. Rather, we are to be reconciled, that is, to accept what God has already achieved. Second, the gospel minister’s job is not to bring about reconciliation but to announce what has already occurred. "