Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

[davo]

Or am I to be left with the conclusion that full-blown preterism has no record of existence before 17th Century when it was devised by Roman Catholic scholars in order to counter the reformation’s historicists view of the apostate Roman Church.

The Jesuit Alcasar only systematised what had already been in tow. Not only that… apply your “conclusion” to any degree of prêterism not just “full” (partial for example) and the whole objection falls flat. As for example would the likes of Calvin’s earlier “justification by faith” – same deal. IOW the whole “argument from silence” is a complete furphy… just as the likes of ‘predestination’ (Luther) or ‘justification by faith’ (Calvin) etc were not invented by these men alone, but simply systemised.

This makes interesting reading from Eusebius Pamphili of Caesarea (AD. 264-339)

Book III. Chapter VII.—The Predictions of Christ.

1. It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.

2. His words are as follows: “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

3. The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.

4. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:

5. “If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.”

6. And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again: “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”

7. If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvellously strange.

8. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.

9. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord, were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.

10. Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.

Book III. Chapter VIII.—The Signs which preceded the War.

1. Taking, then, the work of this author, read what he records in the sixth book of his History. His words are as follows: “Thus were the miserable people won over at this time by the impostors and false prophets; but they did not heed nor give credit to the visions and signs that foretold the approaching desolation. On the contrary, as if struck by lightning, and as if possessing neither eyes nor understanding, they slighted the proclamations of God.

2. At one time a star, in form like a sword, stood over the city, and a comet, which lasted for a whole year; and again before the revolt and before the disturbances that led to the war, when the people were gathered for the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth of the month Xanthicus, at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone about the altar and the temple that it seemed to be bright day; and this continued for half an hour. This seemed to the unskillful a good sign, but was interpreted by the sacred scribes as portending those events which very soon took place.

3. And at the same feast a cow, led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple.

4. And the eastern gate of the inner temple, which was of bronze and very massive, and which at evening was closed with difficulty by twenty men, and rested upon iron-bound beams, and had bars sunk deep in the ground, was seen at the sixth hour of the night to open of itself.

5. And not many days after the feast, on the twenty-first of the month Artemisium, a certain marvelous vision was seen which passes belief. The prodigy might seem fabulous were it not related by those who saw it, and were not the calamities which followed deserving of such signs. For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities.

[Eaglesway]

Actually I dont think it is a “furphy” because the OP concerned silence in ancient writings in regards to the coming of the Lord. This unnoticed fulfillment of the second coming of Christ upon which preterism depends.

This unnoticed in history fulfillment that supposedly satisfies so many prophetic points yet is unrecorded in any artifacts of any kind and seemingly impotent in terms of any of the significant effects it ought to have rendered by now in the church or the world at large- were it real.

[davo]

Actually I dont think it is a “furphy” because the OP concerned silence in ancient writings in regards to the coming of the Lord. This unnoticed fulfillment of the second coming of Christ upon which preterism depends.

IF you are consistent and apply your own rationale of “ancient writings” to the equation of Christ’s Cross and all that that entailed THEN you have a HUGE credibility problem more devastating to your own position!

This unnoticed in history fulfillment that supposedly satisfies so many prophetic points yet is unrecorded in any artifacts of any kind and seemingly impotent in terms of any of the significant effects it ought to have rendered by now in the church or the world at large- were it real.

It wasn’t “unnoticed” at all… it was simple NOT understood for WHAT it was – as you yourself repeat. The “evidence” IS there in history… the destruction of Jerusalem WAS “The Day of The Lord”, period!

Jesus’ ‘coming in the glory of the Father’ replicated EXACTLY HOW Yahweh came ‘on clouds of judgment’ as recorded in the OT… it’s all there, it’s the SAME biblical language. It literally happened BUT NOT WITH the wooden-literalism of physical clouds of water vapour under one’s feet.

Of further interest to @Pilgrim with regards this “silence” are a number of youtube presentations by Don K. Preston specifically dealing with the issue…

[Eaglesway]

Period, eh? . Assertion as evidence? e are still in the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is like an onion. Or a rosebud. Or a seed, shoot, leaf, stalk, full ear of grain. Like the dawn that grows brighter to full noon.

I know that Jerusalem was judged, but the Day of the Lord was already begun. Paul wrote to the Thessalonians that we are all children of the Day. he wrote to the Romans, “On the Day that God judges the secrets of men’s hearts by Jesus Christ”. he wrote to the Corinthians, "Every mans work will be tested by fire, for the Day shall reveal it. The Day of the Lord came upon the israelites when jerusalem was overrun by the Assyrians and they were taken captive. Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts.

There is a Sabbath rest for believers. That is the Day of the Lord- as I see it.

[davo]

[size=150]…live dangerously and check out the videos. [/size]

[Eaglesway]

hmmmmm. So the all Day of the Lord produced was the first century apostasy. Doesnt ring true with either the OT or NT prophesies concerning the results of the coming of the Lord does it? Only 20 or so years of glory and then erasure by apostasy.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 **But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.**2 pet 3

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.Is 11

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to [n]mind.
“But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
And her people for gladness.
“I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;
And there will no longer be heard in her
The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.

Present world system and the principalities and powers that govern it and the foundations upon which it is built will be destroyed by the “sword of His mouth and the brightness of His appearing” in His day. That day is still just awakening among the ecclesia and is yet to spread to the world at large.

If all that was produced in 70AD was a little squeak, silenced in history by the first century apostasy, it wasnt much of a Day. Certainly not the Day I read about in the prophets and apostles.

Perhaps it is not the destruction of earthly Jerusalem that is the greatest testimony of the day of the Lord, but rather the revealing, the “coming down out of heaven”, of the New Jerusalem which is still occuring.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Then** I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away**, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain;** the first things have passed away**.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”

There are a lot of beautiful things that come out of the preterist persuasion but this fixing of the day of the Lord at 70 AD isnt one o f them imo.

[davo]

hmmmmm. So the all Day of the Lord produced was the first century apostasy. Doesnt ring true with either the OT or NT prophesies concerning the results of the coming of the Lord does it?

This is the problem with partial prêterism/futurism… it always reflects a partial understanding, failing to comprehend the fuller or more consistent prêteristic view. Do a search on ’Day of the Lord’ in the OT and all bar about one carry negative connotations in terms of ensuing judgment. Such judgment was a PERIOD of time culminating in an end or LAST day.

Persecution was occurring DURING this period AD30-70… though by the nature of things intensified at the latter end AD66-70 – the 3½ yrs or 42mths of biblical prophecy. Those succumbing to persecution ‘turned from the faith’. This was NOT as you errantly say “produced” by ‘the of Day of the Lord’ but by the persecuting Judaisers the likes of Hymenaeus of Philetus and Scribes and Pharisees.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

The “heavens and earth” is descriptive metaphor for “Israel and Jerusalem/Temple–Tabernacle” as Josephus notes: The Temple was “Heaven” and Israel the “Earth”…

Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews - Book 3. 6:4; 7:7

Book 3. 6:4 However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God. But the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only.

Book 3. 7:7 When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men.

Thus what was about to (mellō <μελλω>) “be destroyed with intense heat” was the world of the OC centred and epitomised in the Jerusalem and in particular The Temple. Again the Gk. text proves this by the description of “the elements” (stoixeia <στοιχεῖα>) – none other than the rudiments or basic principle of OC Judaism, as used elsewhere by Paul…

Gal 4:3, 9 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. … But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?

Col 2:8, 20 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. … Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

Again these “basic principles” or “element” “of the world” aka “heaven and earth” that were to melt with fervent heat was Jerusalem and Temple and so ALL vestiges of the “OC world” – thus answering to “what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the world/age?” Mt 24:3

Thus the ‘heavens and earth’ that FINALLY “passed away” was the OC. What had been burgeoning and remained was the NC, none other than “the new creation!” come down out of Heaven i.e., the presence of God. “If any man be in Christ he is a new creation” – this is the consistent application of biblical language.

There are a lot of beautiful things that come out of the preterist persuasion…

What do you have in mind? I do always prefer common ground.

[Paidion]

I would say that the verses you just quoted say this, the day or the hour no one knows, but to those Christ was speaking to he said that the current generation will not pass away until all of these things take place. Neither IMO negate the imagery as the coming judgment on Israel.

He didn’t say the current generation would not pass away until all these things take place.
He said this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

To you, and probably to many others, both sentences mean the same—but they don’t.
You are assuming that γενεα (translated as “generation”) refers to the body of people living at the same time (roughly 30-33 years). The word CAN mean that, but if you look in Greek lexicons, you will find that the word also means, a family, a race, and a nation.

Jesus may have been saying that the Jewish race would not pass away until all these things take place. And it hasn’t yet passed away! So those events could still be future.

Also, if Jesus had been using γενεα to refer to the people living in his day, then the following words of Jesus seem peculiar:

The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. (Matthew 12:41,42)

Why would the men of Nineveh and the queen of the South rise up against the people of that time and condemn them anymore than they would against the people of any other time to condemn them? Was it just because the Messiah appeared in that particular generation?

I think He was saying that they would rise up to condemn all people of that race who, throughout their lives, deliberately reject Him as Messiah.

[maintenanceman]

Hi Paidion, you are right, I did use current instead of this, but the ‘this’ there does mean current ‘as in Jesus’ contemporaries.

If we use race, as you say, we will be saying that after a future coming of Christ the race of Israel will pass away once all these things take place.

I don’t think so.

[maintenanceman]

On a bit of a lighter note within this subject,

davo said:

The Jesuit Alcasar only systematised what had already been in tow. Not only that… apply your “conclusion” to any degree of prêterism not just “full” (partial for example) and the whole objection falls flat. As for example would the likes of Calvin’s earlier “justification by faith” – same deal. IOW the whole “argument from silence” is a complete furphy… just as the likes of ‘predestination’ (Luther) or ‘justification by faith’ (Calvin) etc were not invented by these men alone, but simply systemised.

I was sitting at my table when I read the word furphy… And I’ll be darned if eagelsway didn’t use it also… I immediately asked my wife and kids if they had heard of such a word: no such luck So I resorted to google the thing… I am wiser now. Though I realize I am out of the loop.

Mucho smarter folks than me here.

[davo]

@maintenanceman

If we use race, as you say, we will be saying that after a future coming of Christ the race of Israel will pass away once all these things take place.

I don’t think so.

Well said Chad… this is an extremely astute and logically sound observation.

Not only that but the FACT no translations render “race” for genea <γενεὰ> in ANY of the gospels’ ‘mini apocalypse’ speaks volumes. In fact it would make little to no linguistic sense to exchange “generation” with “RACE” in any passage. Take for example the implications of doing so with Jesus’ words throughout the gospels…

“A wicked and adulterous RACE seeks after a sign” … “An evil and adulterous RACE seeks after a sign” … “So shall it also be with this evil RACE” … “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful RACE” … “To what then shall I liken the men of this RACE?” … “This is an evil RACE” … “Yes, I say to you, it shall all be required of this RACE.”

I would submit that such a reading or rendering to not only be preposterous but potentially dangerous.

Again… genea <γενεὰ> typically translated “generation” would be incomprehensible of meaning if rendered as “RACE” in the following:

Psa 145:4 One generation shall praise Your works to another, and shall declare Your mighty acts.

Lk 1:50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.

Not only this but I would challenge anyone to keep a straight face reading “generation to generation” as anything other than THAT very thing in THESE TEXTS from the OT. As all reputable lexicons will note in some form: genea <γενεὰ> typically translated “generation” speaks primarily of… the period covered by the life-time of a generation, used loosely in plural of successive ages. Here are a few examples demonstrating just this…

Eph 3:5 …which in other ages (genea) was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

Col 1:26 …the mystery which has been hidden from ages (aiōnōn) and from generations (genea), but now has been revealed to His saints.

IMO… to read “RACE” into any of this smacks more of blinkered positional bias than exegetical trustworthiness.

[Paidion]

It may be that Israel as a religion will pass away in that day, a religion that now regards Jesus, not as the Messiah, but as an imposter. Perhaps in that day, all will recognize Him as the promised Messiah, so that generation as a distinct people will pass away and as Paul said, there will no longer be Jew and Gentile, but all will be one people in Messiah Jesus.

[Paidion]

Not only this but I would challenge anyone to keep a straight face reading “generation to generation” as anything other than THAT very thing in THESE TEXTS from the OT.

Who would you challenge? I know of no one who has any inclination to read “generation” in those texts as anything other than the people who are alive at a particular time. However the fact that the word is sometimes used in that way does not imply that the word is ALWAYS used in that way.

[davo]

With all due respect Paidion that seems quite a stretch in credulity. Not only that but Paul’s NO MORE “Jew/Gentile” motif has been, not WILL become, the present reality since THAT time, i.e., it’s not a hope to be attained but a reality to be grasped.

Anyway I’m just putting these things out there for general consideration in light of objections raised etc.

[davo]

However the fact that the word is sometimes used in that way does not imply that the word is ALWAYS used in that way.

Sorry Paidion… with regards to the mini-apocalypse of NT prophecy genea <γενεὰ> IS NOT ever used/translated/rendered “RACE” – it is FACTUALLY incorrect to keep maintaining this, i.e., it is a falsehood!

[maintenanceman]

It may be that Israel as a religion will pass away in that day, a religion that now regards Jesus, not as the Messiah, but as an imposter. Perhaps in that day, all will recognize Him as the promised Messiah, so that generation as a distinct people will pass away and as Paul said, there will no longer be Jew and Gentile, but all will be one people in Messiah Jesus.

Hey Paidion,

‘Religion’ is a ways away from race, nation, people, FW it’s W. These scriptures, at least in my opinion, are pretty focused about a specific time.

Thanks.

[pilgrim]

I was sitting at my table when I read the word furphy… And I’ll be darned if eagelsway didn’t use it also… I immediately asked my wife and kids if they had heard of such a word: no such luck So I resorted to google the thing… I am wiser now. Though I realize I am out of the loop.

I did exactly the same thing Chad so you’re in bad company.

P.S. I, too, love the Quiet Man. For me, here in the UK, the epitomisation of the true American (man) would be somewhere between John Wayne and James Stewart.

[maintenanceman]

With all due respect Paidion that seems quite a stretch in credulity. Not only that but Paul’s NO MORE “Jew/Gentile” motif has been, not WILL become, the present reality since THAT time, i.e., it’s not a hope to be attained but a reality to be grasped.

Anyway I’m just putting these things out there for general consideration in light of objections raised etc.

" it’s not a hope to be attained but a reality to be grasped. "

That really sums up the view of ‘realized covenant eschatology’!

[davo]

I was sitting at my table when I read the word furphy… And I’ll be darned if eagelsway didn’t use it also… I immediately asked my wife and kids if they had heard of such a word: no such luck So I resorted to google the thing… I am wiser now. Though I realize I am out of the loop.

I did exactly the same thing Chad so you’re in bad company.

gotta love google

[Eaglesway]

That was my first hearing- and use, of the word furphy. I looked it up too. I kinda like the word, actually