The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Theology Eschatology
#81

For another anti-Full Preterist/Pantelist take on Matthew 24…

Tom L (apparently a Postmillennialist) of CARM forums who rejects Full Preterism & Pantelism states:

forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theol … ed-already

The problem with that is Christ has already defined the term this generation for us twice

Mt 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

And it was the generation that was living at that time

Mt 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

and confirmed what temple was to be destroyed

Mt 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

It was the temple existing in his day and not some future temple thousands of years removed which could never be stated to be this temple

Jesus repeats the prophesy of the temples destruction

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

associates it with the great tribulation and then repeats

Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I do not believe Mt 24 is speaking of the 2nd coming but Jesus coming in judgment upon that generation

such usuage appears elsewhere i.e,

Re 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Re 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Elsewhere Jesus in a parable noted

Mt 21:33 ¶ Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons

…

Mt 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mt 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mt 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mt 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mr 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

Mat 25 however does show the 2nd advent when Christ judges all and all go to their eternal reward

#82

I know nothing about “the mini-apocalypse of NT prophecy.” But if you are implying that the word “γενεα” in Matt 24:34 has not ever been translated as “race” then YOU are incorrect. YOU are declaring a falsehood.

#83

Origen. Why post such LONG articles, when you also have shared the link? Wouldn’t it be better to just share the link? And perhaps a couple of segments, from the article - illustrating the highpoints?

If it is ANY good, it WON"T disappear, from the Internet. It will be spread, by word of mouth alone. :laughing:

#84

Ok… so I posted the above on Jan 5th and it’s taken you till Mar 10th to produce your “LO” rendition… is LO by any chance missing a final L :question: :open_mouth:

So far, unsuccessfully, I’ve looked around for your ‘LO’ edition of the GNT and as yet not found it — can you furnish a verifying link.

#85

Well, I must confess I missed seeing your Jan 5 post until today.

Certainly I can. “LO” stands for “Living Oracles.”

Here is a link to Living Oracles online:
http://www.moellerhaus.com/Campbell/0Menu.htm

If you do a search for “Living Oracles” you can also download a pdf file.

It can be a little tricky finding a particular passage since Alexander Campbell’s “Living Oracles” is divided into sections with titles, and each section begins with the corresponding chapter number in Roman Numerals and is divided into paragraphs with the beginning of each paragraph beginning with a verse number. So to find the verse in question, first find Section XIII The Prophecy on Mount Olivet and then scroll down to the paragraph beginning with 32 and read this paragraph until you arrive at the the appropriate sentence. The paragraph will look like this:

Note: I have highlighted the offensive word in red.

#86

Many times i’ve found that articles, posts, etc, on the internet later disappeared.

BTW it adds to the collection of articles & posts on this page (2 of this topic) that davo hasn’t addressed.

Also let’s not forget davo declining the challenge to debate TomL of CARM on this topic. It seems he knows when he has met his match,
yet continues to propagate Pantelism all over these forums.

And while we’re on the topic of “why”, why keep posting images into our imaginations (which should be reserved for Christ) which quite a few members here have expressed their disgust over?

#87

Ok so there is indeed at least one translation out there rendering “race” for “generation” — I wonder WHY or what possible prejudices’ might have been driving Alexander Campbell’s 1835 4th edition revision/emendation of George Campbell’s original 1827 translation TO CHANGE the originally rendered “generation” over to “race” — as it originally read… as printed HERE or HERE :question:

As you note… “the offensive word in red” — I wonder IF any degree of anti-Semitism of the time was driving this? And does this logically mean that when that expected end would come that “this race” would indeed THEN duly, pass away? Truly a horrid thought indeed… BUT given basic logic not an unreasonable thing to conclude. :open_mouth:

Anyway… my strongly evidenced conclusion is that “this race” is wholly untenable for “this generation” — given logic, common sense and any reasonable plain reading of the texts. Takes for example… WHO does the text say killed Jesus?

Were these… “elders and chief priests and scribes” unrelated boffins 2000+yrs and counting beyond Jesus’ day? Obviously not — they were Jesus’ contemporaries (1Cor 2:8). They were the national representatives of their contemporaries (Mt 27:25) as made MORE THAN CLEAR here below…

One can of course for presuppositional doctrinal reason continue to spin <γενεὰ> genea away from Jesus’ most logical meaning of “generation” BUT IMO it is MOST unconvincing.

#88

I want to return to something, that the Calvinist site, Got Questions - has to say:

What biblical prophecies were fulfilled in AD 70?

I found this paragraph interesting:

New Testament, Anglican scholar N.T. Wright - is a partial Preterist. And in one of his videos, he uses the terms abstract and concrete language - regarding the Bible. The heart of the Preterist vs Non-Preterist debate appears to be… when Jesus and New Testament writers…when they were using abstract and concrete language. And in what circumstance, each of these two categories is appropriate. Kind of like the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic vs Protestant positions - at times. :slight_smile:

There are some interesting things to ponder, from PRETERISM Examined & Refuted. Let me share some high points, from the conclusion:

#89

Davo, I recognize that the word “generation” often refers to all the people living at a particular time. I don’t need to be convinced of that. But it is important ALSO to recognize that the word is used to describe a people group or family. In Greek the verbal form of “γενεα” (generation) is “γενναω” (generate). And so it is in English. Abraham generated Isaac (Matthew 1:2) Or “begat Isaac” as most translations have it. Or “became the father of” as some translations have it. And thus one can understand how “generation” came to mean “people group.” The Israelites were a generation, the descendants of Jacob, and “this generation” in Luke 9:22 could refer to them.

Even these two don’t exhaust the meaning of “generation.” In English usage, it can also refer to the immediate offspring of people—exempli gratia— “the next generation.”

#90

Concerning Matt 24.36 & going forward The Full Preterist believes this is still addressing Jerusalem 70AD & that Jesus returned then,

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows not even the angels of heaven , not the Son but the Father only. As were the days of Noah , so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking , marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the Ark, and they were unaware until the flood and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.” 24.36-39

So the highlights of this description is that it describes Jesus second coming and that it is sudden and unexpected because people were engaged in normal living. They were eating and drinking and marrying which are things they do in everyday life. Jesus compares his second coming to a sudden and unexpected flood that caught everyone by surprise except Noah & family.

But the Jerusalem 70AD was a slow strangulation over more then three years whereas the Roman army surrounded and starved Jerusalem. It was not sudden and the army was seen marching to Jerusalem so it was not unexpected. The poetic language used to describe the Jerusalem destruction is also not so unique as it is similar to language used by Ezekial & others describing the Jerusalem destruction of 586BC.

#91

My history may well be a little rusty, but didn’t the roman army set up encampments around Jerusalem, and let people come and go to some extent until the final push? Also, if I am not mistaken, at some point Titus allowed people (Jews) to enter but not leave, thus multiplying the starvation factor. The Jews were coming to the sacred city to worship. But that is how one could say that people were engaged in normal activities. Until the final thrust, which by some accounts was a crazy blood thirsty orgy. It could very well fit in the description of the prophet Jesus.

#92

The heart of the Preterist vs Non-Preterist debate appears to be… when Jesus and New Testament writers…when they were using abstract and concrete language. And in what circumstance, each of these two categories is appropriate.

As I understand it the biggest issue is that Full Preterists believe Jesus second coming happened in 70AD but there was no physical evidence or eye witness accounts about his return, no resurrection, no final judgment so the FP (generally speaking) see this as a spiritual event not a physical second coming. They see it as Christ coming into the hearts of believers and that after 70AD people get judged individually at death. Also they cast aside the physical body aspects of the resurrection and they consider death to be a natural end to the physical body , not a result of the fall of man and the result of sin. Another issue is that in FP there never is an end to evil on this earth. Also the millennium FP generally consider to be that 40 year period up to 70AD, but millennium whether it’s a thousand year period or the period between Christ’s advents means a long period of time, not 40 years.
These things individually may not sound earth shaking but for example if death is a natural course actually determined by God and not a result of Man’s fall then the nature of Jesus sacrifice looks different. Also if Jesus doesn’t coming back in glory where every eye will see him but instead comes secretly into the hearts of believers doesn’t Jesus seem different? Perhaps a little gnostic looking?
I’m not sure if the great majority of FP take the second coming spiritually or some other way but if it’s not physical with great glory where Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings then other doctrines get impacted.

#93

Steve, perhaps the biggest issue is the insistence that the words of Jesus apply only to those to whom His words were spoken, and that the instructions that the apostles gave, apply only to those to whom they were writing. Where does that leave all generations since that time, including ourselves. Does God have no instructions for us whatever? Are we just left to fend for ourselves, and determine for ourselves through reasoning what is morally right and wrong? Or maybe we don’t have to bother, since they believe that Jesus provided for the salvation of everyone regardless of what they do or how they live since it is “not of works.” Also, just what is that from which everyone has been saved? I’ve asked this question over and over, and still have not received an answer.

#94

Good! The reason I’ve pressed this point as to Jesus’ use of the term in the mini apocalypse of Mt 24, Mk 13 and Lk 21 is to counter the errant teaching of some futurists who in seeking to explain away the obvious claim that Jesus’ “this generation” refers to a future Jewish race alive at some supposed end of time — that notion, as I have demonstrated, was nowhere near on Jesus’ mind nor lips.

Yes agreed indeed it can.

#95

Davo, I recognize that the word “generation” often refers to all the people living at a particular time.

Paidion,
I have a couple of questions if you don’t mind. Is it possible that this generation refers back to the parallel account in Luke 21.24 where “until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled” and then at this time it may refer to “this generation”?

Also i was thinking of the FP understanding of the second coming. The greek word for “coming” i believe is “parousia” which can also mean “presence” , so is it possible to extrapolate from this thought the idea that Christ’s presence is in the heart?

#97

Luckily, the Calvinist site, Got Questions - has an answer at: :smiley:

What are the times of the Gentiles?

#100

As far as I see the Old Covenant ended on the cross when Jesus sacrifice initiated the New Covenant. This temple destroyed in 70AD was not a Holy God ordained place of worship, it was Herod’s temple used by Rabbinical Judaism.

The Hebraist wrote that the Old Covenant would be ending soon. His epistle was written years after the cross.

Actually in Hebrews 8.13 the writer (probably Paul) said the Old Covenant was obsolete and fading away. It either is effective or it’s not and i take obsolete as obsolete and i take fading away as perhaps an allusion to the destruction of the temple.

#101

In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure.

-Tacitus

For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities

It sounds like Angelic activity but i thought you didn’t believe in Angels? At any rate “coming in the clouds” is a phrase used in the OT to describe God ordained destruction of a nation and that may be what this activity foretold.

#102

What do you think the “times of the gentiles” is?
qaz

Posts: 1757
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

According to Ellis Skolfield it is the times the Jews could no longer perform their own temple sacrifices 533BC until 1967 when Israel regained control of all of Jerusalem and the Temple and it was 2,500 years or time,times and half a times based on a day for a year.
Skolfield believes we are now in the time of the end from Daniel 12.9

#105

Fading away = ending soon. You merely rephrased what I wrote.
qaz

Posts: 1759
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

I emphasized obsolete and I think obsolete=obsolete, so I did not rephrase what you wrote.