Faith and/or Works?


#227

I hear Reconciliation’s response to be that he doesn’t need to explain such Scriptures, because we live “in this age of Grace” where Jesus’ teaching does not apply. For now, embracing “Christ crucified” means you can Not also embrace “works with faith.”

My own sense is that dismissing Jesus’ message is unjustified and solves nothing anyway, since Paul can talk of works as essential as well (as in texts Paidion presents). My impression is that such a commitment to ignoring such Scripture’s is driven by the reassuring appeal of believing that our actual life and righteousness is not vital to God, and thus we are secure. But for me personally, the faith that He is committed to bringing about the vital changes that God calls us to means that I can still securely trust my destiny to Him.


#228

then you didnt hear me at all and I implore you to read above HOW i fit works into salvation. Seriously tired of getting strawmanned. If you dont want a lengthy read Ill shorten it for you.

Not a condition of Grace, but a byproduct. I am not the source of good works, I am the catalyst.


#229

Mock me if you want. Im pretty much done with this discussion and very well may just stop visiting the forum completely.


#230

No one’s mocking you. We’re just trying to get you to perceive the plain truth about salvation as taught by Jesus and His disciples.


#231

I would be disappointed if you left the forum.


#232

Funny, calling me a blasphemer isnt mocking me? I havent, not that I remember, even suggested anyone else is wrong. Ive stated I dont agree and my reasons why and how it applies to me but I havent even suggested the other person had to be wrong,until now in defense, just so I could justify feeling as though I was right. Posting comics stating “you might be wrong” while not even considering that you might be the one who is wrong is ironic. Ive even said multiple times “i might be wrong” but you say “i have the plain truth” because you cant even entertain the idea you might not be right.


#233

Thanks Qaz but Ive seen a few things that arent really jiving with me right now. It isnt the difference of opinions, its how its been presented by a few people. Most everyone has been cool, and I dont hate anyone. But Its just more frustrating than its worth. I might just take a break for a week. Just read instead of replying. Its been a good reminder why I stayed away from social media for so long. I might also just not post other than for assurance in the things we agree on such as the salvation of all, or to comfort someone in doubt or fear. or only comment on less divisive topics and just leave my opinions at home.


#234

I know where everyone is coming from. I have the same problem, presenting my theory here…that the ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE, is the most probable - end-times tribulation scenario.

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#235

ATR, I’m sorry you seem to have heard my view as mocking you or calling you a blasphemer. I don’t think that nor intended that at all. I realize (and agree) with you saying that works are a product of grace. But when you keep repeating, “If works are necessary then nothing really changed,” it sounds to me like you are not comfortable engaging the texts that appear to call them essential, and the reality that judgment texts (in both Jesus and Paul) consistently base the verdict on an examination of our life and works.


#236

That wasnt you Bob. no worries.

I meant that in context of if justification is still being earned by works then it is no longer grace and its just the same o.t. just with one sacrifice being made for pardon (i.e. Christ).

Id disagree that Paul makes eonian salvation of works, lest it be of Grace, however Paul does put the cart behind the horse and tells us who hitches the cart to the horse, which imo is God. But like I said above I think Im going to avoid theological debate further and just start leaving my personal beliefs at the door. I have, however, feel like Ive explained them well above if you are curious as to my position. Whether you agree with them or not maybe itll give you at least a p.o.v. from my perspective of where works fit in with this age of Grace.


#237

Like many evangelicals, especially those of us raised in a dispensational traditional interpretation, I’m actually quite familiar with your understanding that is wary of the place we give to works.

Yet I’d ask, where does the O.T. teach that “justification is earned by works”? Many Bible students would say that Israel’s election, salvation, and justification were all by grace. God expressly did not choose to give it to them because they were superior to others. He promises Israel a covenant relationship, and saves them out of Egypt, whether they are righteous or not. Then after their saving deliverance, the commandments are given, such that the works of obedience are what follow after their election.

I.e. it is not clear to me that God changes anything fundamental about his grace or what he seeks or requires. And I find any righteousness we have in either testament follows from cooperating with the grace with which God gifts us.


#238

Does dispensationalism teach that Jews are eternally required to follow the Law?


#239

Mind you Im still learning myself. I am no teacher. I know the rudiments but not how to play a whole drum solo lol.

If you are interested in the theory, even if you dont agree, this would be a good start.

on the right side, under the drop down menu of “correct partitioning”, are articles which distinguish between the administrations between the bride (circumcision) and the body (uncircumcision)


#240

THIS! Just WOW. It even annotates its claims with verses of scripture.


#241

Thinking I need works to be saved produces all kinds of anxiety in me. Every day I say sorry to God, probably dozens of times for every little sinful thought that pops into my head. It’s exhausting. If we need works to be saved, the question is “how good do our works have to be?”. Anything less than perfect works seems arbitrary if we embrace a works righteousness framework. And I don’t know about you guys, but I’m not perfect.


#242

Does this mean that you are fearfully believing that it is possible that you will lack sufficient works to be saved? I see plenty of texts that appear to assume works are needed, but I don’t see that this means I need to fear that God will let my own shortcomings leave me short of being saved. I don’t even fear that my lack of perfect faith will mean that I could end up unsaved by God. I simply believe that God who started a good work in you and I will be faithful to complete it.


#243

Like i said I’m done debating for a while. But I do want to console people with fears.

Your response is EXACTLY why i felt the urge to respond to this post and accurately define what justification is. Not only because I too was riddled with anxiety but because understanding what justification really means truly did set me FREE.

The idea of mixing law as a condition with grace is a futile attempt and only produces confusion and fear in those whom know they don’t live up to the model of salvation often presented by modern churches. I once heard a guy who said “you have more liberty under the law of moses than you do under the law of churches” which is true from my research.

If you have the time I think that second source i posted might help a little.