The Evangelical Universalist Forum

'Finding Darwin's God' Kenneth R. Miller

Johnny Parker recommended I read this book and so I thought I’d start this thread to discuss points raised by this book. I’d never really made much effort in trying to prove or disprove evolution, as I was under the impression that evoltuion is not a friend to orthodox Christianity- I was scared in case science ‘disproved’ the Biblical accounts. In the last few years I have tried to understand the claims of science e.g evolution, old earth, etc and so I was more than happy to read this book and see what Miller has to say. So far so good.

I’m now on chapter 3 ‘God the Charlatan’. In this chapter, Miller discusses how some creationists believe that God made the universe and earth to ‘appear’ very old, although in reality they are not. I didn’t know that some creationists actually believe this clearly ridiculous ‘explanation’ for why scientific methods prove the universe and earth are indeed billions of years old. Here’s how Miller expresses this absurd idea:

‘‘This means that every event witnessed by the Hubbell space telescope and other astronomical instruments, including the explosive disintegration of stars and the gravitational effects of black holes, is FICTICIOUS.’’ pate 79 (my capitals).

To my mind this is CRAZY. When the ‘Big Bang’ happened, it unleashed a sequence of events that have to run their course surely?

This realisation raises a ‘problem’ about Adam and Eve for me- which I’m sure Miller will go on to discuss. I’ve always thought it a bit strange that God would create a fully formed man (with no belly button :open_mouth: ). I’d never really lingered in Genesis long enough to get really bothered by this strange story. Did God create Adam to ‘look’ twenty years of age when really he was newly created? It doesn’t sound as silly (to me) as the above scenario of the universe only seeming to be old, but surely the same principles apply… :confused:

Hi Catherine

What you say here really resonates with me. When I was a much younger Christian (I’m 48, and have been a Christian for 30 years), I used to fret a great deal about the whole ‘religion vs science’ debate. I too had this fear that ‘science’ and ‘Christianity’ were in conflict. I was afraid that somehow science - particularly in areas such as evolutionary theory and cosmology - might somehow ‘disprove’ the existence of the God I believed in.

When of course, as I long ago discovered, it can and never will do anything of the sort. Science can only tell us things about the material world. As God is ‘spirit’ – immaterial (the puny tools of language are woefully inadequate to express this concept) – His existence or non-existence cannot be proven or disproven from the material universe, it can only be inferred (or ‘uninferred’).

Despite the late, great Stephen Jay Gould’s oft-quoted dictum about science and religion being “non-overlapping magisteria”, the whole ‘science vs belief’ thing is a chimera, a red herring. The two should and in fact do exist in perfect harmony. God creates, and science helps us explore and understand the wonders of His creation. It’s as simple as that.

If you want proof that this is in fact the case, you need look no further than all the brilliant believing scientists over the centuries. Most of the discoveries and ideas on which modern science rests, the “giants’ shoulders” on which science stand, were made by believers, often devout Christians: Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Faraday, to name but four.

Would it surprise you to hear (if you didn’t already know :smiley: ) that Charles Darwin – one of the poster boys of the new atheism – was a Christian believer in his youth? He made it clear that his seminal work On the Origin of Species in no way ‘disproved’ or ‘did away with the need for’ God. It is true Darwin gradually lost his faith, but as he himself said, this was in no small part due to his abhorrence of ECT theology (!); his inability to solve the ‘problem of evil’ (ie the suffering and cruelty in the world); and the tragic death of his young daughter Annie.

Might it surprise you also to hear that Albert Einstein can in some true sense of the word be classified as a ‘believer’? Certainly he was not a Christian. He was born a Jew, and he explicitly denied belief in a ‘personal’ God. But he was not an atheist.

Regarding your specific point about Miller’s chapter ‘God the Charlatan’ and the ‘apparent age’ theory favoured by some young earth creationists, well, this is an absolute non-starter for me. God is the God of all truth. By definition, He cannot lie. Jesus himself tells us that we shall know the truth, and the truth shall set us free. To me, it is simply inconceivable that God would pull a stunt like that. He would not ‘trick’ His creation by snapping His fingers and bringing a fully formed universe into being, as Tommy Cooper used to say ‘just like that’ :smiley: .

In fine, the apparent age theory is total rubbish, and as Miller so clearly explains, demonstrably so. Anyone who believes or promotes it is being wilfully ignorant. And that is not what Christians should be.

You will have to continue reading Miller to discover what he believes about the evolution of man (I’m not going to write any spoilers here :smiley: ). But for what it’s worth, my own view, as I have said elsewhere on this forum, is that while I believe Genesis is absolutely true, expresses the most profound spiritual truths, the actual Genesis stories are ‘myths’ – but they are mythic as defined by the novelist William Golding:

“I don’t like the word allegorical, I don’t like the word symbolic. The word I really like is mythic. And people always think that means full of lies, whereas of course what it really means is full of a truth that cannot be told in any other way but a story.” (My emphasis.)

[William Golding and the Bible as 'mythical truth')

Thanks for your posts. I look forward to lots more fruitful discussions on Finding Darwin’s God with you!

All the best

Johnny

Hi Johny- thanks for your response. I see no problem in accepting science and its discoveries AND believing in a supernatural being ie God. I agree with the comments you make. :slight_smile: My worry was never about that, but rather about whether Christianity can exist alongside the discoveries of science, so namely: is Christianity true? I’m hoping Miller can persuade me that evolution and Christ ‘make sense’. We shall see… :smiley:

Hi Catherine

You’ve been quiet - on this topic, at least :smiley: - for a couple of weeks. Does that mean you’ve given up on Miller? Or are still reading, or cogitating? Or just doing something else with your time? :smiley:

All the best

Johnny

I may have to check that book out myself sometime… sounds interesting. :slight_smile:

Have you read my latest comment on Total Victory’s Evolution thread, Johnny? It may interest you :wink:

You may want to check that thread out yourself if you haven’t already, Catherine :slight_smile:

Hi Johny, I’ve almost finished the book- just on last few pages so I have been ‘holding fire’. Should have plenty to discuss in the near future. :smiley:

Hi Edward- I found that thread the other day, by chance and so I’m going to read through it, once I’ve finished this book. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. :wink:

Ok! I’ve finished the book. :smiley: I’m so glad you recommended it Johny. Miller seems to show quite clearly and in a uncomplicated way, how the evoutionary processes (which science seems to testify to) that have been going on for so many billions of years, really do account for all the different life forms on earth. I’d been scared to really look at evolution (being content to read anti-evolution literature) in case evolution only ‘seemed’ true and was some sort of ‘trick’ which I would be taken in by! (I’m not saying I thought the biologists/scientists were deliberately misleading people, but may have been mislead themselves). I don’t have this worry about ‘gravity’ being a reality, or 2+2 equalling 5, so why was I so worried about evolution being ‘true’? I thought it would harm my faith in God, and Miller has a good go at showing how you can believe in both- but the book does not really address ‘Christianity’ in light of evolution. I’m sure he would have to write several more books to do that, because so many ‘problems’ come to mind (my mind) when I now try to understand Christianity ( the idea that we started off sinless and need saving from sin ). That idea seems now really weird when considered in conjuntion with the biological processes of evolution. :confused:

In the chapter ‘God The Mechanic’, Miller exposes Michael Behe’s claims of irreducible complexity as erroneous (which was upsetting as Behe is (was) one of my heroes, his signed copy of Darwin’s Black Box proudly displayed in my bookcase!).

Here are three points I wrote down, that Miller asserted, and which seem to deny the message of the Bible:

Evolution is not rigged- (‘The Road Back Home’ page 233). Miller seems to be saying that he sees no problem with God being the First Cause and causing the ‘Big Bang’ from which evolution evenutally works it’s processes, but that these processes were not ‘rigged’ to definately produce us humans. Evolution could have produced many different kinds of life forms different to the ones we know of and are around today. Miller is asserting that the ‘process’ once unleashed is left to work its way whatever that may bring. Having always believed that God made man in His image and planned to live with man forever (in the New Heavens and Earth), this ‘hit and miss’ idea seems strange (but does make sense to me). This ties in with the second point:

**God is not affecting history ** in ‘The Road Back Home’ page 237, Miller states:

‘To a biologist, evolution is subject to chance and unpredictability, just like human history. Its outcome is uncertain, and likely to be unrepeatable, just like human history. And evolution admits to no obvious purpose or single goal, just like human history. HIstory, like evolution, seems to occur without divine guidance. No one seems to think that a religious person engaged in the study of history must find a way that God rigged human events in order to cause the Civil War, the Industrial Revolution, or the Holocaust. Yet curiously, that is ecactly what many expect of a religious person engaged in the study of natural history- they want to know how God could have ensured the success of mammals, the rise of flowering plants, and most especially, the ascent of man.
My answer, in every case, is that God need not have. Evolution is not rigged and religious belief does not require one to postulate a God who fixes the game, bribes the referees, or tricks natural selection…’

If Miller is right (and he seems to be talking sense in my opinion) how does this fit with the God of the Bible who **DOES **affect people and events down here? E.g Bible prophecies, God knowing the end from the beginning? God manipulating people like Pharoah (He hardened his heart?), God as the potter fashioning dishonourable vessels? ‘The lamb of God slain **BEFORE **the founding (disintegration) of the world’???

These two points of evoution and history not being rigged brings me to the third point:

**Things are not determined **- Miller discusses this in ‘Beyond Materialism’ and compares the unpredictability of events at the subatomic level, with how our choices are not 'truly determined, but are undetermined- hence free will, choosing good over evil etc.

This third point need not be at odds with what the Bible teaches (seems to teach?)- there are plenty of Christians who believe in a God who has determined all things (e.g Calvinists) and a God who allows a certain amount of ‘freedom’ in order for people to be accountable for their actions (most Christians I know).

How can God know how something will pan out, if the future is undetermined? Or if things are generally undetermined, God would then have to dabble with things in order to affect an outcome He wants which the Bible has many examples of). Again, Miller makes very good sense, but I can’t help wondering if those quarks or whatever they are, whose actions we can’t determine, are following some ‘unseen’ law that has actually determined what they will do? Am I being too dumb to think that? At least you can see how limited my scientific knowledge is. :blush:

My biggest problem if evolution is true (sorry I still say ‘if’, my doubts still persist a bit) is how we understand death and suffering and ‘sin’. If we need saving from death and suffering (and sin) then is it really our fault we were thrust into a world that will break down and cause us to suffer and die and do things we may not want to do? My head really is spinning where that is concerned.

I’ll look forward to your comments guys. :smiley:

I’m just reading TotalVictory’s thread : If Evolution is true, what does “Salvation” mean?

and I think the points I’ve raised are going to be answered on this thread. :smiley:

Hi Catherine

I’m glad you enjoyed the book. Like you I found it very persuasive from the scientific, evolutionary viewpoint. I am convinced the theory of evolution is correct.

You ask some very perceptive and challenging questions. And I cannot answer them, I’m afraid. :smiley: If you’ve read all of BobBobBob’s long but excellent *Evolution vs Salvation *thread you’ll have seen that I had a stab at explaining how I see it all hanging together. But to be honest, there is so much I don’t understand. Sometimes I feel like giving up even *trying *to understand. Sometimes I wish I had the simple faith of a completely uneducated, even illiterate person who just has faith in God and accepts the truth of His word without question. But I can’t think myself out of my own skin, or out of my doubts and questions and puzzlement.

But just a couple of points in response to yours:

I believe that God does not ‘rig’ history, but He does ‘see’ all of history - all of time - spread out before him. He sees the future as it happens. As I’ve said elsewhere, I like the expression “God sees what you did tomorrow”. And while he never (or perhaps I should say rarely, or very rarely) ‘intervenes’ directly in history, in what I guess some people would call a miracle, he does work in human hearts, exerting a loving ‘pull’ on our spirits.

As I said on Bob’s thread, the Holocaust happened. That for me is proof that God does not override human free will, for reasons I doubt will ever be transparent to the human mind. The Holocaust (as an exemplar of human evil) is also, for me, proof that the Calvinist notion of all events being preordained by God is nonsense. Hence I am a strongly Arminian Universalist, who believes that God will get His own way in the end, but because He has arranged things in His universe in such a way as to give us genuine freedom, that process inevitably involves pain.

Not sure if you’ve read Thomas Talbott’s The Inescapable Love of God, but there’s a really good explanation in Chapter 5 of what God’s “hardening of pharaoh’s heart” might have really entailed. I can send you a pdf of the chapter if you’re interested.

You say:

As you have already discovered, Bob’s thread, to which I have contributed, attempts to answer this very question. I’m not sure we’ve got very far though … :smiley:

All the best

Johnny

Hi Johnny, thanks for coming back to me. :smiley: I haven’t read all of Bob’s thread yet, and I did notice you’ve put up a detailed explanation of what you think, so I’ll endeavour to read it soon.

I agree with you regarding Calvinism, although I would say our ‘wills’ are not really ‘free’ hence why so much evil happens, and hence why we need setting ‘free’.

I haven’t any books to read at the minute and so you’ve given me a good suggestion: ‘The Inescapable Love of God’. Thanks. :wink:

I’ll look forward to reading the chapter you mention.

Bye for now…