Flaws with penal substitution/satisfaction theory


#21

Well, Dave, the first question is that if you have really spent time investigating pantelism, which you said you have done, you maybe should have figured it out. :open_mouth:

Let’s go through it. God said I will have a people. Abraham was the guy. Abraham was told that through him all the nations would be saved. Christ was the savior, and as the story unfolded, many of the very Israelites that God wanted to save were kind of obstinate. they decided that they knew what God wanted better than the prophets and Jesus said. They were very obstinate.

But God sent His son to be the propitiation for the people of Israel…

So God through his son has Redeemed not only Israel, but the nations, all of the nations:
And we need to consider this possibility: It is done.

Many perished in Christ’s second coming, And God was vindicated. Or at least we knew were He stood.


#22

Well Mr. Snarky Pants, you did not answer the question. :astonished:

What IS the relationship between Christ and 21st century believers? Yeah I’ve studied a bit, but that answer ain’t where I have looked.


#23

I’ll take a quick stab Dave… the firstfruit saints were servants of Christ in the outworking of Israel’s redemption and in consequence humanity’s reconciliation. Believers post-biblical fullness continue as ‘servants of Christ’ in terms of… witness (to what God has done), worship (honouring God) and works (ministering blessing as duly endowed).


#24

Except when the tribulation and Zombie Apocalypse - is finally here. Then folks would be reminiscing, about the warning messages - from this Holy Fool here. And wishing they had watched more episodes, of the TV shows - The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead. :wink:


#25

Nope. The Zombie Apocalypse happened in 70 A.D. Just ask Davo and Randy :stuck_out_tongue:


#26

That is a first. I’ve been called a mother (blank), and S.O. (?), Dumb A…, but never a snarky pants.

Thanks, I’ll put it in my resume :laughing:

I was simply replying to your post where you eluded to the fact that you had gone through ALL of Mr. Embury’s posts. So either A) It didn’t sink in (which is unlikely due to your intelligence level) or B) you are still holding on to pre conceived biblical views. … Which is not bad or wrong in and of itself. It took me 30 years to come to the ‘pantesist’ understanding, and I admit, I might change. :open_mouth:

The Idea that God through Christ DEMOLISHED all separation between God and humanity for me is huge. Sin is no longer (in my view) a part of the equation. Christ took care of all of it. Yes (to answer the question that you are asking right now) knowing who Christ is and what he did DOES impacts us positively. We learn to love each other, forgive the BS that goes on in our jobs, lets us try to understand that everyone is unique and what you may be thinking in a given situation, someone else may be taking a whole different view. And that deals with relationships, politics, with self worth. In fact I am really veering to the understanding that Christianity today, is about showing our fellow man their self worth. Because so many people are fragmented and disenfranchised and thinking they have no hope. They do have hope and let’s help and encourage them.

Yepper even though I believe Christ’s Parousia has already happened, does not diminish in one iota what he does for us today.

I hope that helps my friend. :smiley:


#27

Thanks Chad - I’ve never called anyone else Mr. Snarky Pants, in fact, I’ve never used the term. It was just inspiration, I guess. :laughing:
Good-natured ribbing :smiley:

I had read all of davo’s posts up to the time I wrote that earlier post- probably about 1/2 of his entire opus on the forum, but not ALL. Still I got some profit from it, and some head-scratching as well.

My reluctance doesn’t come, I don’t think, from pre-conceived views - but I could be wrong. I try to look at things fresh each time.
My antennae (yes I have them, usually covered with a hat) do twitch when I hear certain themes propounded, but hey, they are just antennae and not always reliable.

The truth is out there!
Dave


#28

I’m all about balance… :laughing:


#29

Cool, so does the idea I float about Christ in the 21st resonate, or am I full of bovine feces?


#30

No I don’t think you are full of it. You’ve given serious thought to it and I respect that.

Though speaking of BS, you did call one of my posts exactly that. Here is the post, and your comment follows it.
BTW, All in all, I consider this by NT Wright to be a most fruitful approach - and it addresses the questions of authority and of innovation that is consistent with it. You call it BS, so be it.
Here goes:

“But what might this appropriate response look like? Let me offer you a possible model, which is not in fact simply an illustration but actually corresponds, as I shall argue, to some important features of the biblical story, which (as I have been suggesting) is that which God has given to his people as the means of his exercising his authority. Suppose there exists a Shakespeare play whose fifth act had been lost. The first four acts provide, let us suppose, such a wealth of characterization, such a crescendo of excitement within the plot, that it is generally agreed that the play ought to be staged. Nevertheless, it is felt inappropriate actually to write a fifth act once and for all: it would freeze the play into one form, and commit Shakespeare as it were to being prospectively responsible for work not in fact his own. Better, it might be felt, to give the key parts to highly trained, sensitive and experienced Shakespearian actors, who would immerse themselves in the first four acts, and in the language and culture of Shakespeare and his time, and who would then be told to work out a fifth act for themselves.[5]
Consider the result. The first four acts, existing as they did, would be the undoubted ‘authority’ for the task in hand. That is, anyone could properly object to the new improvisation on the grounds that this or that character was now behaving inconsistently, or that this or that sub-plot or theme, adumbrated earlier, had not reached its proper resolution. This ‘authority’ of the first four acts would not consist in an implicit command that the actors should repeat the earlier pans of the play over and over again. It would consist in the fact of an as yet unfinished drama, which contained its own impetus, its own forward movement, which demanded to be concluded in the proper manner but which required of the actors a responsible entering in to the story as it stood, in order first to understand how the threads could appropriately be drawn together, and then to put that understanding into effect by speaking and acting with both innovation and consistency.” -http://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/how-can-the-bible-be-authoritative/

Like it/hate it?

DaveB

P
Postby maintenanceman » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:11 pm

Hate it.

Have no idea what it means. It is all bovine feces, and I will say that there are many here on this forum who may agree with me. :laughing:


#31

Me.too. That’s why I NOT only watch shows, like The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead. But also shows like the Rev. Peter Popoff,… with his miracle spring water and his instant money miracles. :laughing:

And I looked…and I looked. But I still can’t find any zombies - from 70 A.D. :laughing:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaFCGx3SIFs[/youtube]


#32

Hmmm… well what’d you expect, they’re still all FUTURE — back to the drawing-board for you and Paidion. :laughing:


#33

Well, look, I shoot from the hip many times. At the end of the day I love and appreciate you, but both of us, (or at least I’ve come to realize) know that none of us will agree… Here on this forum or in life. So my regard is to show you what I think, and to listen to what you think, and we will maybe somehow learn to disagree. :wink: By the way it is still a bunch of crap… Just my view…


#34

Why oh why, MM, is it a bunch of crap? To you? I would think it would be right up your alley.

Isn’t this EXACTLY what any-ism’s DO? Like this:
Consider the result. The first four acts, existing as they did, would be the undoubted ‘authority’ for the task in hand. That is, anyone could properly object to the new improvisation on the grounds that this or that character was now behaving inconsistently, or that this or that sub-plot or theme, adumbrated earlier, had not reached its proper resolution. This ‘authority’ of the first four acts would not consist in an implicit command that the actors should repeat the earlier pans of the play over and over again. It would consist in the fact of an as yet unfinished drama, which contained its own impetus, its own forward movement, which demanded to be concluded in the proper manner but which required of the actors a responsible entering in to the story as it stood, in order first to understand how the threads could appropriately be drawn together, and then to put that understanding into effect by speaking and acting with both innovation and consistency."

Help a brother out, won’t you? :smiley: You’ve got your Bible, but it’s not completed yet - all the way up to 2018 believers have tried to understand the story, and figure out, within the playing field of the story, how to continue it on and bring it to finale. The Biblical story is the authority - it sets the stage, propounds themes, develops characters etc - then we to the best of our ability, mindful of the themes and characters before us, try to develop and continue what God started and is still doing.

Magnificently clear!!


#35

Well, Maybe we need to not look at the scripture as a fifth play lost…

I appreciate the Idea but it is kind of … well juvenile, I wanted to say dumb, but I will refrain.


#36

No no no no no! Scripture isn’t the 5th play lost, nincompoop! Scripture is the first four acts, where everything that happens and is said is just great, but unfinished, because it points to the future. WE ARE the fifth act. Jeez. :laughing:


#37

No, we are after all the [size=150]acts[/size]. You see, I said the very thing a while ago, but you continue to once again believe that there is something coming.

I will say okay… Good for you… but good luck. I will put nincompoop in my resume also :laughing:


#38

I already added ‘juvenile’ and ‘dumb’ to mine.


#39

Well, I am juvenile and ‘dumb’ already, so let’s move on.


#40

Interesting m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1631944

What do you guys think?