Forgiveness of Sins or Forsaking of Sins

[Paidion]

Paidion maintains… “ Jesus didn’t die in order to grant “forgiveness of sins” but to grant “deliverance from sins” or on our part “forsaking of sins.

Davo, you have quoted those verses again as if quoting the translation of the phrase as “the forgiveness of sins” or “the remission of sins” gives justification to the concept that that is the meaning. It doesn’t!
The verb from which “αφεσις” is derived is “αφιημι.” One of the meanings of “αφιημι” is “to permit” or “to allow.”

Then Jesus *arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit(“αφιημι”) it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him. (Matthew 3:13-15 NAS95)

So what if a large group of translators decided that “αφεσις” in the verses you quoted actually means “allowance” or “permission” as in the following example:

Mt 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the allowance of sins.

Would quoting all the verses rendering “αφεσις” as “allowance” provide a shred of evidence that they should be so translated? I don’t think so!

I maintain that it should be

Mt 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the deliverance from sins.

Of course it would be incorrect to translate the phrase as “the forsaking of sins.” But nonetheless, the deliverance from sins on God’s part together with the forsaking of sins on our part constitutes righteousness in our lives. As Bob pointed out, it’s synergy (working together). We must coöperate with the enabling grace of God to deliver us. We cannot do it alone and God will not do it alone, but working together with God, we can do it.

And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain —

• 2 Corinthians 6:1 NAS95)*

Yes, Paul makes it clear that unless we “work together with Him” any attempt to receive the grace of God is in vain.

But why, you may ask, should I be so certain that the phrase in these verses should be translated as “deliverance from sins” rather than “forgivenss of sins” or “allowance of sins”?

This one verse tells it all:

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because He did anoint me; To proclaim good news to the poor, Sent me to heal the broken of heart, To proclaim to captives deliverance, And to blind receiving of sight, To send away the bruised with deliverance. (Lu 4:18)

Jesus quoted this verse from Isaiah and applied it to Himself. He wasn’t sent to proclaim forgiveness to the captives. They didn’t need forgiveness; they needed deliverance from their captivity. Nor was He sent to proclaim permission to the captives. Permission wouldn’t help them a bit. Unless they were delivered from their captivity, they would still be bound by it.

[Bob_Wilson]

Yes, I think anyone who’s worked a lot with NT translating will see that though there is some weight to a consensus, even when a term is later recognized as quite questionable, English language versions often follow in lock-step the early KJ tradition (e.g. with the genitive, the pistis of Jesus). That’s especially true with classic phrases like “the forgiveness of sins.” Thus it may be significant that I cited some translations that buck this tendency.

[davo]

Well, my question was precisely why YOU believe that the (unmissable) referring to “sins” makes “forgiveness” aphesis ’ only possible translation? It may well be correct, but I’d argued that deliverance (Lidell & Scott’s “setting free”) from our bondage to “sins” in our life may also be a possible meaning.

…if he thinks that aphesis should be translated ‘forsake;’ but I don’t and haven’t. I did take him to favor ‘deliverance’.)

But Bob… way back in my second post to Paidion I AGREED with this notion of deliverance, and thus as such… with you! Did you NOT read this? Let me repost it…

I believe that the phrase should be translated as “the deliverance from sins” or possibly “the forsaking of sins.”

“Deliverance” is fine because that’s what the release from sin is… “forgiveness.” If forsaking were the intent then <ἐγκαταλείπω> egkataleipō would have been used — it’s not.

Acts 13:38-39 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;

Acts 13:38 GNT γνωστὸν οὖν ἔστω ὑμῖν, ἄνδρες ἀδελφοί, ὅτι διὰ τούτου ὑμῖν ἄφεσις ἁμαρτιῶν

ἄφεσις,n {af’-es-is}
1) release from bondage or imprisonment 2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

As you HOPEFULLY will NOW see… with regards to <ἄφεσις> aphesis I affirmed ‘deliverance’ as appropriate BUT simply rejected ‘forsaking’ as inappropriate.

I maintain that it should be

Mt 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the deliverance from sins.

Of course it would be incorrect to translate the phrase as "the forsaking of sins."

As I thought I made clear, I can live with that as I indicated by my second post to you, which of necessity I’ve repeated above to Bob. And above all that… your last sentence says EXACTLY what I have maintained throughout this entire thread to which you NOW agree above… that, however, wasn’t your original position and was in fact my main contention, which any honest reading of my posts bears out.

So overall I’d say we might have some, to use Bob’s word… synergy.

[Bob_Wilson]

I’d argued that deliverance (Lidell & Scott’s “setting free”) from our bondage to “sins” in our life ia also a possible meaning. And I did take Paidion to favor this translation: ‘deliverance’.)

But Bob, I agreed with this notion… I said,“Deliverance” is fine because that’s what the release from sin is… “forgiveness.”
(ἄφεσις,n {af’-es-is} *1) release from bondage or imprisonment)

It should be, “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the deliverance from sins.” It’d be incorrect to translate the phrase as “the forsaking of sins.”

Hm… You’d insisted the meaning, “forgiveness” is “unambiguous.” So, I responded, No, "deliverance (Lidell & Scott’s “setting free”) from our bondage to “sins” in our life may also be the meaning.

So now you ‘clarify’ that you accept “this notion” of “deliverance,” but immediately repeat that it’s fine because that’s what “forgiveness” is. But isn’t it obvious that speaking of “deliverance,” as being set free from "our bondage to sins in our life" is NOT the same as thinking of deliverance as “forgiveness.” That sounds more like deliverance from sin’s penalty and guilt, rather than its’ bondage and power that I and Paidion emphasize.

So I appreciate your movement from accentuating our difference to suggesting we are really on the same synergistic page. But being disingenuous , my suspicion is that there remains a significant difference that has lacked clarity here. Or have we just miscommunicated, and we both truly agree here the cross was to bring essential deliverance from both our active bondage to sins and from its penalty?

[davo]

But isn’t it obvious that speaking of “deliverance,” as being set free from "our bondage to sins in our life " is NOT the same as thinking of deliverance as “ forgiveness.”

Yes you are being fully disingenuous Bob… BOTH thoughts are true IN THEIR respective contexts — that’s what I’ve been saying relative to ALL those texts I’ve formerly quoted. If it meets a need to read your interpretation into all of them instead, well fine… I have no real issue with that, just as I no issue at all trusting the basic “forgiveness / remission of sins” as typically rendered according to the majority understanding of all those texts as given.

So I appreciate your movement from accentuating our difference to suggesting we are really on the same synergistic page.

Yes… and at least between you, me and Paidion we all do agree that ἄφεσις CANNOT be correctly rendered… “the forsaking of sins” — the real and main thrust of all I’ve being saying.

[Jepne]

About forgiveness of sin: My thoughts when I came to the Lord were that I was tired of holding stuff against a certain person, if I was supposed to be a happy hippie, full of love, joy, and peace. Also, my conscience bothered me because, if I loved my family so much, why did I have to be stoned to keep from ripping them apart with my anger.

These two things were foremost in my mind when I went to a meeting where the Holy Spirit was manifest and I came away knowing the Jesus was raised from the dead, and I was a Christian. I had no thought whatsoever that I needed to be forgiven for these things.

Now, knowing the Lord, when I ‘blow it’, I will say, ‘Oh Lord, forgive me - deliver me from this compulsion’. Something like that.

Before I knew God I had no sense that I needed to be forgiven - I needed to be delivered! Still do in some things.

[Bob_Wilson]

Isn’t it obvious that speaking of “deliverance,” as being set free from "our bondage to sins in our life " is NOT the same as thinking of deliverance as “ forgiveness.”

Yes you are being fully disingenuous Bob… BOTH thoughts are true IN THEIR respective contexts

Well, of course! But Paidion and I’d argued precisely that aphesis may mean “deliverance” from sin’s bondage & power in the very contexts that you insisted could only mean “forgiveness” (of sin’s penalty). You’d fired back at length that it unambiguously can not. Thus I kept asking how you were so certain.

[davo]

Well maybe we have been speak past each other because my contention has been that… aphesis may mean “deliverance” from sin, period, RELATIVE to those texts I’d mentioned and in particular Mt 26:28 — YOU however ADDED… “from sin’s bondage and power” — I wasn’t initially talking about that but rather the texts at hand, NONE of which mention… “from sin’s bondage and power”. AND I’d already said I agreed with the theological point anyway BUT THAT wasn’t what those texts were saying… you’ve ignored that all the way through.

[Paidion]

Well maybe we have been speak past each other because my contention has been that… aphesis may mean “deliverance” from sin, period, RELATIVE to those texts I’d mentioned and in particular Mt 26:28 —

In other words, “αφεσις” means “forgiveness” in the texts in which you want it to so mean, but means “deliverance” in Matthew 26:28 because it is impossible to sensibly translate it as “forgiveness” in that passage.

[Bob_Wilson]

My contention has been that… aphesis may mean “deliverance” from sin… YOU however ADDED… “from sin’s bondage and power,” BUT THAT wasn’t what those texts were saying. (you’ve ignored that all the way through).

Right, I heard that, and since I and Paidion had argued that THAT was what those texts were saying, I kept asking what made your so certain that they were not saying That.
But you seemed to me to ignore clarifying any cogent answer all the way through.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

My belief is that this is a life-long process (He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ—Philippians 1:6)

That’s also the contention of Eastern Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism!

[davo]

Well fellas… ever the optimist as I am I always tend to look at what I do have, not what I don’t have. So given you have both come to the realisation and agreement that with regards to <ἄφεσις> aphesis it would be INCORRECT… “to translate the phrase as "the forsaking of sins"” then I think we can all live with that.

[Paidion]

So given you have both come to the realisation and agreement that with regards to <ἄφεσις> aphesis it would be INCORRECT… “ to translate the phrase as “the forsaking of sins” ” then I think we can all live with that

I can not only live with that. I believe that. It was never my intention to indicate definitely that the phrase means “the forsaking of sins.” I brought up the phrase because it indicates our part in the synergetic aspect of salvation. Jesus’ part in salvation is the deliverance from (our) sins, whereas our part in salvation is “the forsaking of sins.” I think what stumbled you was my unfortunate title for this thread, which suggests that in translating the phrase we have two options, “the forgiveness of sins” or “the forsaking of sins.” I confess that that was a foolish blunder on my part.

And, I did foolishly write, " I believe that the phrase should be translated as “the deliverance from sins” or possibly “the forsaking of sins." That, too, was foolish to consider “the forsaking of sins” as even a possible translation. I was still pondering the matter at that point. But you convinced me that the phrase could not be so translated.

[DaveB2.0]

I brought up the phrase because it indicates our part in the synergetic aspect of salvation. Jesus’ part in salvation is the deliverance from (our) sin, whereas our part in salvation if “the forsaking of sins.

That approach seems to me to be the most consonant with scripture and Christian experience, and the writings of authors I am most drawn too as well.

[LLC]

then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” And he got up and went home. (Matt 9:2-7 NAS95)

Forgiveness can also mean suspension, postponement, remission, respite, reprieve.
John 5:14 says 'Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him," See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."

[Invernessian]

Well, as a Johnny-come-lately to this discussion, I can only say I have found it captivating, A series of sermons could be written dealing with the subject. I only wish I knew NT Greek as well as Paidion and Davo obviously do. That said, I have to confess I am puzzled why there needs to be so much debate over the meaning of Greek words in the context of the big picture. However, I do admire the spirit in which my three learned friends conducted this debate

Frank Sinatra used to sing:

Love and marriage, love and marriage
They go together like a horse and carriage
This I tell you, brother
You can’t have one without the other…

Without getting into any details, I will simply contend that any sermon based on scripture would come to the same conclusion. You can’t have the one without the other - forgiveness of sins and the forsaking of sins, or vice versa. Moreover, if that holds true, there is not much benefit to be gained from struggling with semantics.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

That said, I have to confess I am puzzled why there needs to be so much debate over the meaning of Greek words in the context of the big picture.

It’s a Protestant thing!

One of the young EO priests, recently graduated from an EO seminary. I once ask him, how it differed from RC and Protestant seminaries. In short, he said that RC seminaries incorporate philosophy…And Protestant seminaries, focus on language. I think he hit the nail, on the head.

[LLC]

Moreover, if that holds true, there is not much benefit to be gained from struggling with semantics.

True. As Isaiah says “Cease to do evil, learn to do good and your sins will be white as snow.”

[DaveB2.0]

Or, even more importantly, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”