Paidion - I’m certainly happy with that definition. It fits my FWED theory just fine.
I’m not sure it needs any tweaking, really - it has explanatory power, it saves the appearances, it’s actually common-sensical in the good way.
I am adopting that definition.
Paidion - I’m certainly happy with that definition. It fits my FWED theory just fine.
I’m not sure it needs any tweaking, really - it has explanatory power, it saves the appearances, it’s actually common-sensical in the good way.
I am adopting that definition.
It could suffer the death of a million qualifications, like so many good definitions do, but it stands alone just fine.
That’s true. Obviously there are limitations to free-will - generally and specifically. An aborted child does not have the free-will to live and be baptized and live a long life in this era. There are some people who have had their lives determined by forces outside of their control… they are not free to choose. In these occasions, I believe, God has special compensatory grace to accommodate where no free-will has been possible. In all situations where there is free-will, God has allowed the same rules for engaging God for everyone. A person does not need to be academically perfect to call out to God in their heart. A person can be an invalid, mute, deaf, spastic, quadriplegic, or have any other limitation and still be allowed access to God. The early church believed that such ones had a special ministry upon earth… Their entire lives were a prayer and praise to God, and they are given greater status within God’s Kingdom.
Steve
Steve - that comment on compensatory grace was excellent. I’d never thought of putting it that way. Nice.
Steve,
The problem with your free will is that it contradicts the Bible:
I understand that you think that free-will contradicts the bible. You are reading these scriptures through the predestination lens. I would recommend the book to you: Predestination & Free Will: Four Views of Divine Sovereignty & Human Freedom.
amazon.com/Predestination-Free-Will-Sovereignty-Freedom/dp/0877845670
You will understand, at the very least, that these scriptures can be seen through different lenses.
Steve
The scripture is clear.
As I stated elsewhere:
Due to the corruption of man’s nature his heart is in bondage. Indeed, he is a slave to sin. On the contrary we see God with whom it is impossible to sin. He still makes choices but because of His holy nature He cannot sin. He has no desire for sin and therefore cannot sin. Free agency is a mark of humanity as such. All humans are free agents in the sense that they make their own decisions about what they will do, choosing as they please according to their desires and thoughts. When humans make it to heaven they will have a completely new nature with all sin and sinful desires removed from their hearts. They will be free from sin. Because they have new natures they will be like God and it will be impossible for them to sin. They still choose what they want but because all sin is removed from their hearts they always want to do the right thing. The Bible describes the fallen nature of man in many places.
Paul states that in our fallen condition we do not seek after God. No one seeks after God. When the Bible speaks of inabilities It’s speaking of the inability to do what is truly good. There is common grace that enables people to do some good. But without this grace man cannot do good:
Those who are accustomed to doing evil can no more choose to do good than a leopard choose to change his spots. The leopards spots are part of his nature. Likewise sinners all have a corrupted nature. This is why (apart from saving grace) no one seeks after God. Those who are according to the sinful flesh cannot subject themselves to God and His law:
The mind set on the flesh is an enemy and does not subject itself to the law of God (willful and wanton rebellion). It is not able to do so.
How can anyone be saved? Because there is a sinner seeker. A Savior, who saves people perfectly without fail. This is the difference between man’s religions and Christianity. One is focused on man’s abilities. The other is focused on God’s abilities to accomplish what He sets out to do
Everyone is unable to come without the drawing of the Father. But God will accomplish what He sets out to do. Indeed, later it says God will draw all people to Himself. Without fail.
I find it difficult to disagree with this t-shirt. Not that the t shirt has actually argued with me, at least not that anyone else could hear…another story…but I have actually come to see the wisdom in it. Not perfect wisdom, but some. Along with my FWED I now propose a CER - clear enough revelation. It’s clear enough to trust and act on and it points us to the beauty of the infinite.
Cole, I find your position illogical (probably because it isn’t nuanced enough to work logically) – yet I LOVE all those verses you posted, and as you know, I LOVE Romans too. God is so great. He can give us freedom to the degree we are able to apprehend it, and He can yet play us like music. We have freedom to choose this or that as Paidion says, and He has the wisdom to outmaneuver us at every pass. We are no match for Him.
Like a girl in a romance novel refusing a determined suitor who is more than a match for her and is absolutely devoted to her good. She is free to choose, but we all know how the story will play out. Of course, we WANT him to win her; that’s the way it’s supposed to happen. No matter how badly she behaves, no matter what stupid things she may say or do, we know that if he wants her, she must be worth wanting, and that if he wants her he will eventually persuade her because he is, in the end and whether the author or the readers know it or not, a type of Christ pursuing His own bride – the church.
To me, Romans and 1 Corinthians (and other places) seem to say to me that there is a body of Christ that will consist of those who are won in this life, and there is the remainder of the harvest. If the firstfruits are holy, so is the balance of the crop. The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof. I do believe that God gives the grace for salvation to those who are ready to receive it. Not because those are somehow more meritorious or because He loves them more or blesses them more, but rather that He chooses them because they’re closest to being “ripe,” just like you’d pick the orange that is starting to soften up a bit. It’s ready. There’s nothing wrong with its brother oranges; they just need to stay on the tree a bit longer. The children born first care for their younger siblings. The elders aren’t superior; they’re just older and capable of looking after the little ones. The little ones didn’t choose to be born later, but their egg/sperm simply didn’t come up first. They’re neither better nor worse – only younger.
As for correction, well we’ll all receive that, to the degree that we need it. If there is wood hay or stubble, it will burn – younger and elder alike. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle of the free will debate. In my view, we are none of us as free as Father wants us. We grow into that freedom as we become ready. Good human parents do that too. Their goal is for the children to become more free as they become more responsible and able to handle the freedom. The parents didn’t choose which children would be born first, and perhaps God doesn’t choose in that way either – or maybe He does; I don’t know. But some ARE born first, and those become the firstfruits, imo.
Cindy,
You assert it’s illogical. Okay. But this doesn’t prove it’s illogical. The scriptures stand. You also didn’t refute my explanations of the scripture. You just told a story about someone who has free will.
Cole,
The bare-bones Calvinist argument (whether universalist or not) doesn’t wash. Calvinists don’t see this, and I suppose you don’t either. It’s okay. It’s just that it’s illogical.
God predestines you to be elect.
He creates you as a flawed sinful human being who cannot help sinning.
He irresistibly draws you so that you become regenerate.
You choose Him (through no merit or impetus of your own)
You become truly free and God gets the credit because without His intervention you would still be a sinner.
God predestines you to be lost (in this life only).
He creates you as a flawed sinful human being who cannot help sinning.
He does not draw you and you do not become regenerate.
You do not choose Him because it is impossible to choose Him until He draws you.
You do not become truly free (yet) and it is all your fault because you continued to choose sin rather than choosing God (though it was impossible for you to do so.)
It’s illogical for God to get the glory for the first option and man to get the blame for the second option. God is responsible for both situations in the view of Calvinism.
The bible is not illogical.
Therefore we are understanding the bible incorrectly if we believe the above.
Cindy,
As I explained above man is responsible for His evil actions. God doesn’t force man to sin. He simply allows him to act according to His own will. He lets man do what he wants to do. God is not unjust for withholding saving grace from a rebel sinner that doesn’t want to have anything to do with Him. This inability is a moral inability. Sinners still retain their natural freedom to do what they want.
Cole, I would never say that God is unjust, and I didn’t say that. I said your proposal is illogical – not that it matters, really, but it’s just illogical. I don’t want to irritate you. That’s not my goal at all – but I can’t pretend that’s logical.
Well, you haven’t shown it to be illogical. Grace is unmerited favor and therefore never owed to a rebel sinner that doesn’t want to have anything to do with God. The unregenerate still retain their natural freedom to do what they want to do.
Okay 
Cindy,
When God performs a miracle by grace he takes out the heart of stone and puts in a heart of flesh. Man then wants to come to God.
That’s a beautiful parable, Cindy. I guess Moses felt that he was going to resist grace at one stage - 40 years in the wilderness. Nevertheless, God wooed him when he was ready. The rest is history…
Grace isn’t actually unmerited favour. I’ve always found that explanation unsatisfactory. It is the divine inspiration that leads, prompts and provokes us.
Ponder this. If God creates us and makes us flawed and we therefore act according to our natures as he made us, are we really free to choose? Doesn’t our nature prohibit us? We say that animals act according to their nature, then deny that we are the same, which is illogical.
When Adam disobeyed God, what actually happened? If there really was free will then why did his curse fall on us all? Surely it would have just rested on him. And yet all of mankind is damned by his act, or his choice as some of you believe. That isn’t free will. Why aren’t we different? There has to be more to it. Where did God place the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Right in the midst or middle of the garden. The garden is a symbol for man also. In my view Romans 8 is a wonderful explanation for this if people can understand it.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity (moral depravity), not willingly (not by our choice), but by reason of him (God) who hath subjected the same (us) in hope,
Limited choices are not free will or free moral agency. Even a monkey can make a choice. But to actually choose to do something that is not in our nature is not possible. Everything will reproduce after it’s own kind. It takes the inspiration of God through the chastening of our trials that helps us to overcome our natures. Nothing else. God’s righteousness demands a judgement, but he judges righteously. That’s why his plan is to save ALL, not just some.
Watchman,
The Bible teaches that man is responsible for His evil actions. God doesn’t force man to sin. He simply allows him to act according to His own will. He lets man do what he wants to do. God is not unjust for withholding saving grace from a rebel sinner that doesn’t want to have anything to do with Him. Grace is unmerited favor and never owed. This inability in man that the Bible speaks of is a moral inability. The unregenerate still retain their natural freedom to do what they want to do. The problem is they don’t want God. When God performs a miracle by grace he takes out the heart of stone and puts in a heart of flesh. Man then wants to come to God. When we get to heaven all desires for sin will be completely removed from the heart. All we will ever want to do is love God and each other. Just as it is impossible for God to sin. It will be impossible for us to sin.