Okay, so let me get this straight, God sent His Son into the world but not really, He sent Himself? God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son but, well, not really, He actually gave Himself? Jesus taught His disciples to pray to our Father Who is in Heaven but, well, He was just waxing poetic. He really wanted them to pray to Jesus on earth? Jesus came to do the will of God but, actually, according to you, God came to do the will of God? “Not my will but Thine be done” should be thought of as “Not My (God) will be done but My (God’ will be done”? “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?” should be thought of: “Myself, Myself, Why did I forsake Myself?” I could go on all day.
“He who has seen me has seen the Father” in that He REPRESENTED the Father who is invisible. He represented the Father in His works, words and miracles. “The Father spoke to us in a Son.” The holy spirit is the God’s spirit. God is spirit.
And how can Jesus be “God” since Jesus, when He was on earth said “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and my God and your God.” So how can Jesus be God when His God was in Heaven while he was on earth? And Paul said “for us there is only one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.” Just one God. Not three Gods. Not Three in one and one in Three. Not a Trinity. One God. One.
We just finished John 1-3 in Bible study tonight and were reminded that, Jesus though born after John the Baptist, was before John the Baptist because He is the one that came from Heaven. Jesus existed before He was born. No other man can say that. So just because Jesus refers to the Father as His God does not offer any proof that Jesus is not also God. Some additional Scripture will guide us. I mentioned Romans 9:5 above and you made no comment about it. The definitive proof for me is Thomas’ worship of Jesus as God. I think we all know the first commandment and so Jesus would hardly accept worship if He was not God. Some one above suggested that we worship God in one sense but we can also worship other things as well. Nopity nope nope nope to that. So clearly Jesus is not a regular man for He came from Heaven and existed before He was born and received worship. So do you think Jesus was an angel? A created being? Who do you say Jesus is? He is the Son of God, God himself, along with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, who will be worshiped as God by all creation one day, sooner or later.
God created all in the heavens and earth through Christ. That’s what the Bible says. But that proves a distinction between God and Christ, not a likeness or sameness. So of course Christ existed prior to John the Baptist and before Abraham. Jesus said “before Abraham was I am.” Jesus is the One Who created Adam and Eve as He formed them of the soil of the earth.
“Jesus is the beginning of the creation of the God” according to Revelation 3:14 in the Greek. For God to be the Father of Jesus, Jesus had to have a beginning. If you have a child, you were not a father before your first child was born. You were just a husband. Only after your son or daughter came into existence did you become a father. Likewise with the heavenly Father. There was a time when He was only God. Then after He brought Christ into existence He became a Father. So the very term “Father” proves non-eternalness of the Son. “ALL is out of God.” So Christ came out of God. You likewise came out of God but you are not eternal. “All is through Christ.”
“nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.” But not in all is there this knowledge" (1Co 8:6-7).
This is important for the gospel message of Christ’s crucifixion reminds us of the bitter cup, that our sinful natures are at enmity with God himself because the Jesus we crucified is God himself. Too many ‘would be’ Christians throughout history are on a ‘persecute me campaign’ thinking that somehow they might find a place on a cross beside Jesus Christ. Even if a nearly righteous man were to die a righteous death it is nothing compared to the death of God the Son for our sin. That is the meaning of a final point in Hebrews that Christ blood is better than Abel’s blood. Abel’s blood was the blood of a sinful man while Christ’s blood is the blood of the perfect God-man. Finally, we are also reminded of God’s great love for us, because Jesus is God who forgave us from the cross.
No, the evangel is that God sacrificed His only begotten Son. He didn’t sacrifice Himself. The evangel is “Christ died for our sins.” It is not “God died for our sins.” Please memorize 1 Corinthians 8:6-7 above. Jesus isn’t the God Who sent him into our world to save us from our sins. This Trinity mumbo jumbo is causing you to not believe the evangel properly.
Friends, the word Trinity is not in the Bible. We agree on that. However, thoughtful Christians have debated this in the past in order to find expression for the majesty of our God’s characteristics. I find the expression Trinity useful to understand the relationships expressed in the Godhead. Clearly there is relationship and communication within God and relationship requires multiple-persons. Clearly there is also distinction of person and roles as well see each mentioned at Jesus’ baptism, the Great Commission, and throughout Scripture.
Nice try. So we are encouraged to believe in the “hypocrisy of false expressions”? Jesus is God but He isn’t actually God but He is but He isn’t but . . . .
Why the debate? Some of you guys are proving a theory of mine that Universalism has attracted quite a number of bitter anti-orthodx people. Friends, orthodoxy is not the enemy when orthodoxy is right on a particular point. Of course no denominational orthodoxy is perfect and so errors will be found. So is that a reason to be angry and anti-orthodox? Well can any of you claim to have a perfect theology without error yourself? So lets each take the assignment to be ambassadors in the Christian fellowship we attend and seek to win others to the good news that the Lord God Jesus Christ is the savior of all mankind and He will accomplish His goal victoriously! And are we humble enough to learn from others and fellowship even if they are not Universalists? The bitter anti-orthodoxy only serves to alienate us from others and back us into a corner with barbs bristling.
Who is angry? I am perfectly at peace with my understanding. Let “orthodoxy” believe what they want. But likewise, if they can defend their position, I am allowed to defend mine. I can fellowship with anyone. But fellowship does not mean rubberstamp a falsehood just so we all get along. What’s next jeff? Mary worship?
As to your question if I agree on everything of Knoch, there are some words I wished he had translated a little differently. For instance, for the word [h]uper I think “over” would have been good to use where it is written “Christ died for our sakes” as “Christ died over us.” Just as a man dies over a deck of cards, i.e., the card game became corrupt so he died over that,* it was over us that Christ died*. Of course, “for the sake of” works fine. It is just that I prefer getting closer to the Greek in some instances. P.S. I no longer burn incense to Knoch’s picture on a daily basis. LOL (joke).