The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Evangelical Universalism
#1149

As Eusebius points out, within scripture salvation is discussed in past, present and future tense. To say “I have been saved” is not incorrect. To say “I am being saved” is not incorrect either. Nor is it to say “I will be saved”.

Where the problem comes is when people over-emphasise one or two of these to the neglect of another. Within evangelical Christianity, it’s common to focus too much on the past tense version - “I have been saved”. To a slightly lesser extent, the future tense is also a part of it - “I will be saved”. What’s missing is the focus on the present tense and I think that largely comes down to two ideas; one being that salvation, as people in this thread have referred to, means to be saved from (eternal) post-mortem punishment, and the second (very much related) being penal substitution - i.e. salvation is simply the legal fiction of us no longer having our sins counted against us because Christ has (supposedly) taken the punishment.

As such, many are willing to focus on the past tense (“my ‘debt’ has been paid because of Jesus’ death”) and the future tense (“I will no longer be punished on the day of judgement because of this”) but not so much on our ongoing salvation. To live a holy life is simply to make certain of our future salvation or to bring others to “believing in Christ’s atonement”. If salvation in the present tense does become a topic of discussion, it’s often to denounce the idea that we’re saved by works.

For what it’s worth, I have no problem, theoretically, with the idea that part of our salvation is being saved from post-mortem punishment. What I take issue with is the notion that it’s the main ‘point’ behind being saved. As the angel says to Mary in Matthew 1 “you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” It’s our sin itself that we need to be saved from, not the punishment for it.

#1150

Right. There is not one verse in all the Bible that says “believe in Jesus in order to save yourself from eternal hell fire and damnation.”

People wrongly read into Romans 5:9 where it says we shall be saved from indignation" to mean “eternal torment.” God is right to be indignant toward sin and rebellion. But it is a corrective indignant as a loving father corrects His children.

#1151

Hi Jonny…

There is something else to consider in terms of what gets read into different portions of the bible, and this IMO is one of them… as I understand it, “he will save his people from their sins” is NOT speaking of Christians aka believers BUT Israel of the old covenant. Jesus’ people i.e., “his people” was national Israel, period. Again as I understand it… in consequence of Israel’s redemption was the wider creation reconciled, which is what Paul alludes to in Romans:

Israel’s “life from the dead” is a reference to Israel’s covenant renewal in Christ i.e., redemption — “the forgiveness of sins” (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14) — thus the fulfilment of Mt 1:21.

#1152

Oh I agree Davo. I’m just saying that the principle and intention by which Jesus came is for the salvation of sins and that intention is ultimately universal, even with the ‘limitation’ of that verse in mind. Nowhere in scripture does it talk about salvation being primarily from punishment, whether it’s with humanity as a whole in view or with a specific group or person.

#1153

Yep, pretty much. Israel’s redemption being the means to that broader ends.

I tend to see said “salvation” in the NT as pertinent primarily to their end of the age (AD70)… which in their scenario was a punishing consequence to be avoided, and would be IF Israel heeded Jesus’ warnings, for example, Lk 13:3-5. But I agree in terms of ‘postmortem’ calamity… the NT is somewhat silent. Issues like being “thrown into the lake of fire” are assumed as being postmortem, BUT such really only speaks to the totality and gravity of THAT judgment, i.e., THEIR judgment (as I understand it).

#1155

The soul speaks to the very core of one’s identity… in the case of Israel, their position as the very people of God (identity) was under threat, and unless they repented i.e., had a change of heart with regards to Israel’s Prophet i.e., Jesus, they would duly find themselves wholly cast aside… gehenna = lake of fire; and that’s where they were heading. Some more thoughts HERE.

#1156

Since the soul is literally the sensations the body experiences, having the soul destroyed in Gehenna is equivalent to a Jew not being able to enjoy the soulish sensations of the kingdom Christ is going to set up. They will miss out on all the blessings of the millennial reign of Christ. When the body is destroyed, thus also the soul. I mean, after all, it is hard to enjoy anything when one’s body is destroyed.

#1157

God does not punish arbitrarily for the sake of “payback”(imo), He punishes to correct. Whatever post-mortem “aionian kolassis/aionian pyr”(Mt 25) is, it is symbolized by fire(jesus called it aionian fire).

Jesus’ eyes are as flames of fire. Every person is salted with fire. Our God is a consuming fire. God is love. God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. Light is fire to darkness and if anyone hates his brother he is “in darkness still”- so love is light and fire, and it consumes all enmity until there is only love, communion, union, harmony- in the “all in all”.

I gather that some do not believe in post-mortem correction because of the ramifications in the “fulfilled view”, so I am not really speaking to that. I understand that- but from my view, Gehenna and the lake of fire are symbolic of being immersed in light, in such a way that every secret thing is brought to light(Rom 2 on the Day where God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ… 1 Cor 3 every mans work will be tested by fire for the day shall reveal it).

The Day shall reveal it by fire. Light is fire to darkness. The body that is destroyed is not(imo) referring strictly to the flesh body. Gehenna is symbolic of, for instance Rev 14:10 -tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. Every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him…“Hide us from the presence of the Lamb and the one on the throne”.

All these images speak to the fact that God is setting the whole creation free from futiltiy, chaos, tohu and bohu(without form and void) by the new creation, which the fulness of God that was in Christ filling all things until God is all in all. The One who dwells in unapproachable light will draw all into that light until all darkness is excavated, exposed and dissolved by the glory of His presence. "If I am lifted up from the earth(Christ crucified- the perfect message of love) I will draw all men unto me.

“The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it.”

In Peter 2 the apostle speaks of this…"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell(tartaroo) and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;… the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the Day of judgment…

But in the next chapter 2 Peter 3 speaks of the stoiceon(elementary principles) being “dissolved”(lysethetai) to be replaced by a “new heavens and a new earth” in which “righteous dwells”- the all in all(imo) of the fulness of light.

God is patient not wishing that anyone perish, but that all come to repentance(the condition that opens the door for the fulness of light.

All “fire” is for the purpose of restoration to fulness of light, however and whenever it is applied.

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.Ro 2

In Gehenna, or the “lake of fire” a divine intervention will take place, light shall shine of of darkness to reval the “Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.”

The veil of flesh will be rent and the gold will be separated from the lower elements by “fire”(the light of His presence) and all will “come to their senses”.

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

#1158

Sooooooo . . . . . . . . umm . . . . . getting back to the original post . . . . . Does anyone remember what this thread is about?

#1159

Eusebius:

Even if folks remember, what this thread is about. A certain bible verse…a certain theological or philosophical statement…etc…can take folks in a certain direction.

Why? Because they are responding, to that particular bible verse…philosophical or theological statement…or subtopic.

Suppose they are really exploring a subtopic - that was brought up. And - more often then not - that subtopic is often initiated, by someone initiating a thread. :unamused:

Just an observation. :exclamation: :wink:

#1160

#1161

Okay, so why don’t we get back to Free willism or God’s sovereignty in salvation of all?

I brought up a question, not that long ago which was, essentially: If one feels they have to do something to save themselves, what must the unsaved do for God to be All in all? It’s about DOING, not experiencing, according to the “works” theory. I think someone said they have to experience God’s judgment. But Christians who believe in works to save themselves don’t believe they have to experience God’s judgment to be saved. So if God requires works for a Christian to save him/herself, what does God require, postmortem, of the unbeliever to save him/herself for God to save all mankind? I really wish I could get a logical answer from the “saved by works” crowd. Maybe the question is too embarrassing for them?

#1162

The only thing they will have to do is repent. Bow the knee. Confess from a grateful heart that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Same as thats the only thing anyone on earth needs to do.

Being judged by ones deeds does not negate salvation by grace. it is about the secrets of the heart(Romans 2; Hebrews 4). Deeds reveal the heart and even the deeds themselves, and the motivataions behind them will be exposed and divided by the light.

Some, whose deeds were of mixed motivation, will be saved, but as “passing though flames”. Some whose deeds are evil will endure aionian kolassis, until they acknowledge their iniquity, confess, and repent. “Their conscience either accusinf them or excusing them on the Day God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ”.

They will not pass through the flames of their own volition. The flames will catch, in the light of His presence…upon anything that is combustible.

#1163

Okay, thank you Eaglesway for your thoughts on this matter.

Anyone else want to take a crack at it too?
If you believe you have to do works to save yourselves, what works must unbelievers do after they are resurrected from the second death to add to what Christ did to save them?

#1164

Yes, Eaglesway, I agree that that is the way to enter the door of salvation. But a complete regeneration of our character—salvation from sins (doing acts which harm oneself and/or others) is God’s ultimate purpose for us, and is a life-long process that will culminate at the coming of Christ. God works that process within us together with our coöperation.

Some who don’t understand salvation as the process of deliverance from wrongdoing itself, but imagine salvation to be deliverance from God’s wrath or from hell, think those of us who teach salvation as a life-long deliverance from sin, are in fact teaching a “works-righteousness” or “earning your salvation from hell,” or “earning your acceptance with God,” etc. This is a BIG mistake—but a very prevalent one. And it’s unrealistic. Actually, I have never met anyone who thought he had do good works in order to be saved. Have you?

#1165

A good question is, “What does He save us from?”

I havent seen anyone say that you “have to do works to save yourselves”.

Salvation is a broad word and a broad topic. Is the question some kind of test against a particular view of salvation? If someone says we ought to have good works and that God will judge us according to our deeds, does that make them a person who teaches salvation by works? Or does that make them a person who is quoting scripture about a particular apsect of salvation? - I am not being rhetorical- I dont know exactly what you believe or what point you want to make.

Is this a test? Or a trap? Something about the way the question is framed is a lil sketchy, but the topic interests me so I have this last thing to say.

Salvation is restoration from futilty into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Sanctification is the process of growing in that restoration- which is being transformed into the likeness of Christ- and it involves our will, and as Paidon posted, our co-operation with God in the process. Is that working to save yourself? Perhaps in a way, if the works are the right ones from the right place

Sanctification is an element of our greater salvation, and goes to the point of it- that we would all be in union and harmony with God in Christ.

So, intial salvation- the introduction is one thing. Ongoing salvation involves sanctification and restoration. It is another thing(as far as defining elements of our greater salvation is concerned). Then there is the salvation to be delivered to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ- in the resurrection. All along the way, Jesus teaches that our works are the evidence of that salvation, along with our attitudes, but I love this verse…

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works that we should walk in them.”(Eph 2) and…

Let us hold resolutely to the hope we confess, for He who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how to spur one another on to love and good deeds. (Heb 10)

So in the age to come, no one will be saved by works, they will all be saved FOR works- just like we were.

So in a sense, good works are salvation(if they are truly good), because love expresses itself in deeds and thoughts that are representative of the new creation in Christ- which is what everyone in every age is being “saved into”. What they are “saved out of” is the dominion of the carnal nature, which is death- and enmity against God

#1166

The question is for those who believe one must have good works in order to be saved.
The problem with that is this: If they believe they have to do good works in order to be saved, what kind of works can one possibly do after they are resurrected out of the second death in order to save themselves?
I don’t believe we have to DO anything in order to save ourselves. We are sealed with the holy spirit the moment we believe and we are sealed for the day of deliverance. That seal cannot be broken by anything we do or do not do.

#1168

Hi quz, that is just what they said. I’m sure Calvinists would agree with them too.

So if one truly believed God that Christ died for their sins, was entombed and roused the third day, such a one is sealed with the holy spirit for the day of deliverance. But if he fails in performing good works, he was never sealed in the first place but actually he was but he wasn’t but he was? Either the Bible is in error or it isn’t.

One’s salvation is proven by believing the evangel of Christ dying for them. It is not based on works or if one has performed properly.

#1169

I really don’t think that any mainline Christian church, teaches “salvation by works”. Let’s view answers, from a few sources:

First, the “Calvinism in Disguise” site - Got Questions:

Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?

Next, a Roman Catholic answer (note that the questioner, phases the question wrong);

Why does the Church teach that works can obtain salvation?

Let me just quote from that article:

Finally, an Eastern Orthodox answer:

How Are We Saved?

None of the 3 answers given (in my reading and understanding), teaches “salvation by works”.

#1171

Cannot? That seems to suggest that a saved person loses his free will.

Also, the idea that a “saved person” who does commit a “mortal sin” was never really saved, is Calvinism pure and simple.

It’s like a person declaring absolutely that goats cannot walk upright on their hind legs. When someone displays one that CAN walk upright, the person simply declares that the animal is not a goat.