Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All


#1205

Scripture does support the inclusivist position (which we shall see shortly). See

Inclusivism and other positions

There is a couple good articles, arguing the Protestant Biblical perceptive at:

An ‘evangelical inclusivist’ defends evangelical inclusivism and Why inclusivism makes sense
An ‘evangelical inclusivist’ defends evangelical inclusivism

Also see:

“Are Quakers Christian, not Christian—or both?”.

And Red Road Spirituality

Notice that inclusivims is NOT puralism. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusivism and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralism

Just so we are talking apples and apples. Or oranges and oranges. And not confusing apples with oranges. :laughing:

More on any “dialogue” tomorrow. As I have a full plate, today and this evening. :smiley:


#1206

Benny Hinn proclaims Jesus as the only Way to God & chastises an unnamed pastor who appeared on Larry King:

youtube.com/watch?v=azqoBksweZA

The unnamed pastor is alleged to be Joel Osteen:

undeception.com/how-did-i-miss-t … smackdown/

Comments by Osteen on Larry King show re Jesus & other religions:

youtube.com/watch?v=YH4p9CmREls

Critique of Osteen’s comments:

youtube.com/watch?v=BMl2iGKfThY

Osteen says there are many paths to Jesus Who is the Way to God:

youtube.com/watch?v=weEWl52wevI

Which begs the question, what are these alleged “many paths”? Do they involve His grace & faith in Him & the gospel:

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Are religions that call Christ a false teacher “paths to Jesus”?

Are beliefs that deny or doubt the existence of God a path to God?

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. (Heb.11:6)

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. (Psa.14:1)

But according to Joel Osteen 99.9% of people are good:

youtube.com/watch?v=_mlhRd3AzR0


#1207

I don’t know about Osteen’s comments - on these matters. And there are MANY who comment - on Hinn’s fake healings and DUBIOUS financial dealings. And Osteen is more, of a Christian motivational speaker. Who lacks a theological training and degree. For that matter, i don’t think Benny Hinn has any either. According to Wiki at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn. So BOTH should refrain from speaking on matters - where they lack qualifications.

Inclusivism is an established theological position. And it is only though Christ, that folks are saved. Whether they know if or not. And it is puralism, that says there are “many paths”. Actually, there’s not too much difference, in the inclusivist and universalist positions. Except for magnitude and number - of those saved.

If folks want to know more - from AUTHENTIC sources. They can go back and read the links - in my prior post. With the apples and oranges GIF.

Should I also provide articles, that call into question - Benny Hinn’s fake healings and DUBIOUS financial dealings?


#1208

The apostles of Jesus hadn’t been to the Pharisees school for “a theological training and degree”, but that didn’t stop them from preaching & teaching the Christ, doing miracles & healings in His name, and writing the New Testament Scriptures:

Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. (Acts 4:13, NASB)


#1209

The apostles are gone. And much has occurred - since that time. Which needs folks trained in theology - to sort out. Or should we look to ordination mills, like the Universal Life Church? Where everyone can get a degree or an ordination? And preach the gospel, preform marriages, etc.? Which they can do legally - in the US - by the way. Like World Christianship Ministries.

And if folks do a Google search on “Benny Hinn fake”, they will find plenty of articles - on page 1 alone. Is this someone folks should listen to and follow - as a “man of God”?


#1210

Some would say “folks” are free to spend (waste) their time and money on Benny Hinn… others might conclude they were predestined to. :laughing:


#1211

The 12 are gone, but are apostles gone? And those that prophesy?

When will the divisions between theologians get sorted out?

Many look to those who speak with “power”:

and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, (1 Cor.2:4)

18 I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obedience by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, and by the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ. (Romans 15)

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


#1212

If everyone is already reconciled to God, why should anyone care about topics like freewill, the moral abilities of unbelievers & how depraved man is? Why evangelize? Why read the Bible, pray, take up your cross & follow Jesus? Why not go live it up & part-ay!


#1213

And how will the common man, be able to sort out the messages - of those “speaking with power”? Especially if they are preaching contradictory messages? I’ve turned on many Pentecostal TV preachers (normally, they are black) and witnessed this first hand.

Let’s look at an article, describing one of these “men of power” - you like:

My night with Benny Hinn

Let me quote a bit - in part:

Well, none of the black TV Pentecostal preachers I’ve watched - said or did that. And I’ve never seen, TV evangelist Joel Osteen - say or do that.

And I observing an “apparent contradiction”, between “men of power”?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/bd717f9090f52c0b2a76eb7e66f58b9d/tumblr_mgtp3pAEQb1rni05eo1_400.gif


#1214

Why not get involved… there might be some chance of freeing some folks from much of the religious bondage that goes with so much of that.

Why evangelize?” — hmm maybe to let people know they’ve been reconciled. :open_mouth:

Why read the Bible, pray, take up your cross & follow Jesus?” — that might be something some people feel let to do, so why not? :mrgreen:

Why not go live it up & part-ay!” — too many Christians live their lives like they’ve been baptised in lemon juice… Christians should be well able to live it up & part-ay! Like why not? :sunglasses:


#1215

Davo:

What about 1 Corinthians 15:32? You don’t see that as a condemnation of partying?


#1216

Let’s see what the Calvinist, Got Questions site - has to say:

Is “eat, drink, and be merry” a biblical concept?

For the Bible (just like any work of literature), you have to keep asking two questions:

Who is the audience?
What is the context, of a quoted portion?


#1217

Randy, with all due respect I don’t care what the Calvinist site gotquestions has to say about anything.


#1218

Basically, they put the passage you quoted - into context. More often then not, folks here (and elsewhere), quote Bible verses out of context.

See Why is it important to study the Bible in context?


#1219

So it’s all about this life, since there is no future or after death punishment?

Is the gospel according to davo: “You are reconciled. But whether or not you believe that in this life won’t keep you from eternal life. All will enjoy eternal life anyway. Even serial killers will not be punished for how they’ve been in this life & get eternal life after they die.”? Does that about sum it up?

Is there anything that would motivate people to take up their cross & follow Jesus besides “that might be something some people feel let to do, so why not?” It doesn’t sound like that would matter. Does this matter:

1 Cor.6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.…


#1220

Tell me if I’m wrong, her lips are not saying ‘it’s out of context’


#1221

She is not saying the word ‘Its’ with her lips. That particular word does not need lippage.


#1222

:astonished:


#1223

Do these “black TV Pentecostal preachers” teach the doctrine of “prosperity”?

Prosperity preachers like the Copelands, Wommack, the Hinns, Oral Roberts, Joseph Prince & many others claim to base their views on Scripture.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology


#1224

You may simply be a troll, like gnostic bishop, to have your fun with us. You do not seem to react to council. :mrgreen: