Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All


#1224

You may simply be a troll, like gnostic bishop, to have your fun with us. You do not seem to react to council. :mrgreen:


#1225

Who’s to say that the partying Paul referred to is the ONLY partying there is. By virtue of the recognition God’s work in Christ i.e., reconciliation, “Christians” should be some of the most overtly “happy” (partying) people on the planet, thereby reflecting “the joy of the Lord” — but unfortunately we’ve learned it’s all about keeping a stiff upper lip and not cracking a smile because “we’re crucifying each day with Christ”. :open_mouth: Give me a break… that’s nothing but false humility and a TOTAL turnoff by way of supposed “witness” — imHo.


#1226

Salvation certainly is. As to postmortem… there may be some form of recompense (IF I were God there sure would be — lucky for all I’m not) but if there were it wouldn’t/doesn’t involve so-called burning in the “lake of fire”… that was John’s symbolic language equivalent with Jesus’ “gehenna” aka the destruction of Jerusalem of AD70. That was the terminus of the old covenant world, or as John also identifies it… “the second death” — there was to be NO RESURRECTION from Israel’s LoF, i.e., no resurrection of law-righteousness.

Well typically no but that pretty much reflect your level of understanding.

“Eternal life” is relational life with God in the HERE AND NOW, as per Jesus’ most distinct definition…

Notice with regards to “eternal life” Jesus states… “this is” NOT “this will be” — He is speaking of PRESENT life realities.

Everyone has different motivations… what’s yours?

Yeah well, so you’ve quoted that without any comment… AND?


#1227

The 1 Cor.6 passage came with a question: “Does this matter”?


#1228

Well, it could possibly matter in terms reigning in life or the lack thereof (Rom 5:17), which is WHAT Paul’s “inherit the kingdom” is all about. Anything that might frustrate the call of God to service could do that. Entering the Kingdom is not about anyone getting to Heaven… Jesus already took care of that, for all.


#1229

I suppose it might be hard to know what the future holds if one believes all prophesy has been fulfilled already:

“Pantelism, is a recent term in Christian eschatology that refers to what some see as an extension of Full Preterism. This view maintains that the Scriptures both prophetically and redemptively, were entirely fulfilled in the person and work of Christ and consummated at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Accordingly, this consummation included not only Christ’s Second Coming, but the final judgment, the resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the reconciliation of all things. The unorthodox aspect of this view is that the reconciliation accomplished in 70 A.D was such that there no longer remains a lost condition in humanity and therefore no present need for conversion – which reduces to a form of universalism where all are saved and one must simply realize what has been done for all humanity.”

theopedia.com/pantelism

Does that sum up your viewpoint?

Is this your website:

pantelism.com/

If all prophesy was fulfilled by 70 A.D., when did the devil go into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10)? Have the “ages of the ages” ended already:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

Do you disagree with the article above that there is “therefore no present need for conversion”? Your statement that there “there may be some form of recompense” post mortem seems to be at odds with that.


#1230

There are two ways - to preach the prosperity gospel message:

Give money to my TV ministry. And God will bless you, with health and prosperity.
Listen to my message, about God blessing you - with health and prosperity.

Which one is the CORRECT" approach? If the health and prosperity gospel is true?


#1231

Concerning the woman who supposedly is saying, “It’s out of context,” I emailed the gif file to my sister-in-law who lost her hearing at a very early age. She has learned to read lips with expertise. I remember an older deaf man in our area who could also read lips readily, but there was one word he could not read, namely “taxi” in which not much happens to your face when you say it except your lower jaw drops and then rises again. However, I tried whispering “taxi” to my sister-in-law and she had no trouble at all with it.

Anyway, my sister-in-law said that “It’s out of context” is EXACTLY what the woman in the gif file is saying.


#1232

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


#1233

Randy said:

I have to agree with you to a point… But first of all ‘prosperity’ (and health) would have to be defined. :confused:

It comes down to is someone profiting from the gospel, or is the gospel being presented to help humanity. :smiley:


#1234

If all prophesy was fulfilled by 70 A.D., when did the devil go into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10)? Have the “ages of the ages” ended already:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

Do you disagree with the article above that there is “therefore no present need for conversion”? Your statement that there “there may be some form of recompense” post mortem seems to be at odds with that.

I’m not Davo or a FP but i bet the Devil was cast into the LOF at the 70AD event. To me it seems clear Satan is quite active and not in the LOF now.


#1235

Why do you think the Devil was cast into the LOF in 70 A.D.?

If he’s active & not in the LOF now, when did he get out of the LOF?


#1236

Why do you think the Devil was cast into the LOF in 70 A.D.?

If he’s active & not in the LOF now, when did he get out of the LOF?

I don’t but i think the FP belief is that the LOF is symbolic of 70AD. Personally i think he is as active as ever and the god of world’s fastest growing religion.


#1237

Given that Origen has moved my quote above from this thread to here I’ve decided to move my response to a more appropriate thread over HERE so this thread keeps closer to its theme.


#1238

Good idea.


#1239

In the early church, according to Church Father Origen - very many - Christians did not believe in free will:

“7. But, seeing there are found in the sacred Scriptures themselves certain expressions occurring in such a connection, that the opposite of this may appear capable of being understood from them, let us bring them forth before us, and, discussing them according to the rule of piety, let us furnish an explanation of them, in order that from those few passages which we now expound, the solution of those others which resemble them, and by which any power over the will seems to be excluded, may become clear.”

“Those expressions, accordingly, make an impression on very many, which are used by God in speaking of Pharaoh, as when He frequently says, I will harden Pharaoh’s heart. For if he is hardened by God, and commits sin in consequence of being so hardened, the cause of his sin is not himself. And if so, it will appear that Pharaoh does not possess freedom of will; and it will be maintained, as a consequence, that, agreeably to this illustration, neither do others who perish owe the cause of their destruction to the freedom of their own will.”

“That expression, also, in Ezekiel, when he says, I will take away their stony hearts, and will give them hearts of flesh, that they may walk in My precepts, and keep My ways, may impress some, inasmuch as it seems to be a gift of God, either to walk in His ways or to keep His precepts, if He take away that stony heart which is an obstacle to the keeping of His commandments, and bestow and implant a better and more impressible heart, which is called now a heart of flesh.”

“Consider also the nature of the answer given in the Gospel by our Lord and Saviour to those who inquired of Him why He spoke to the multitude in parables. His words are: That seeing they may not see; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest they should be converted, and their sins be forgiven them. The words, moreover, used by the Apostle Paul, that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy; in another passage also, that to will and to do are of God: and again, elsewhere,”

“Therefore has He mercy upon whom He will, and whom He will He hardens. You will say then unto me, Why does He yet find fault? For who shall resist His will? O man, who are you that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him who has formed it, Why have you made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another to dishonour? — these and similar declarations seem to have no small influence in preventing very many from believing that every one is to be considered as having freedom over his own will, and in making it appear to be a consequence of the will of God whether a man is either saved or lost.”

newadvent.org/fathers/04123.htm


#1240

Origen, who are these “very many” in the early church who did not believe in free will? If there are very many, you should be able to quote, say, a half dozen of them.

Early in this thread, I posted 18 quotes from early Christian writers, each of whom affirmed that people have free will. Two of these quotes are from Origen! Here they are again:

** 1.** 100-165 AD : Justin Martyr
“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestinated that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions—whatever they may be.” (First Apology ch.43 )

** 2.** [About the year 180, Florinus had affirmed that God is the author of sin, which notion was immediately attacked by Irenaeus, who published a discourse entitled: “God, not the Author of Sin.” Florinus’ doctrine reappeared in another form later in Manichaeism, and was always considered to be a dangerous heresy by the early fathers of the church.]

3. 130-200 AD : Irenaeus
“This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God…And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice…If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things and to abstain from others?” (Against Heresies XXXVII )

4. 150-190 AD : Athenagoras
“men…have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad; unless vice and virtue were in their own power, and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them, and others faithless)…”(Embassy for Christians XXIV )

**5. ** 150-200 AD : Clement of Alexandria
“Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.” (Miscellanies, book 1, ch.17)

6. 154-222 AD : Bardaisan of Syria
“How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation? —if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him…And how in that case, would man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman…they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures.” (Fragments )

7. 155-225 AD : Tertullian
“I find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God’s image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature.” (Against Marcion, Book II ch.5 )

**8. ** 185-254 AD : Origen
“This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the church that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition.” (De Principiis, Preface )

185-254 AD : Origen
“There are, indeed, innumerable passages in the Scriptures which establish with exceeding clearness the existence of freedom of will.” (De Principiis, Book 3, ch.1 )

** 9.** 250-300 AD : Archelaus
“There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he chooses.” (Disputation with Manes, secs.32,33 )

10. 260-315 AD : Methodius
“Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils.” (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, discourse 8, chapter 16 )

11. 312-386 AD : Cyril of Jerusalem
“The soul is self-governed: and though the Devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to thee the thought of fornication: if thou wilt, thou rejectest. For if thou wert a fornicator by necessity then for what cause did God prepare hell? If thou wert a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory? The sheep is gentle, but never was it crowned for its gentleness; since its gentle quality belongs to it not from choice but by nature.” (Lecture IV 18 )

12. 347-407 AD : John Chrysostom
“All is in God’s power, but so that our free-will is not lost…it depends therefore on us and on Him. We must first choose the good, and then He adds what belongs to Him. He does not precede our willing, that our free-will may not suffer. But when we have chosen, then He affords us much help…It is ours to choose beforehand and to will, but God’s to perfect and bring to the end.” (On Hebrews, Homily 12 )

13. 120-180 AD: Tatian
“We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” (Address to the Greeks, 11)

** 14.** (died 180 AD):Melito
“There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 8, page 754)

15. 163-182 AD:Theophilus
“If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” (Theophilus to Autolycus, Book 2, Chapter 27)

16. 130-200 AD:Irenaeus
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’…And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’…All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man…For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.” (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 37)

17. 150-200 AD:Clement of Alexandria
“We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.” (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 6)

18. 155-225: Tertullian
“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance. (Against Marcion, Book 2, Chapter 5)


#1241

I just happened upon the quote while searching for a known Origen reference in De Principiis to aionios punishment (Mt.25:46) being corrective, remedial and finite. It quite shocked me, since Origen appears to be referring to a very large number of Christians within the church who rejected the doctrine of libertarian free will. How long this had been the case is not stated in the bit i posted & i haven’t read the entire page.

Reading & researching the church fathers on this topic has not been of great interest to me & something i’ve left to others who have already done the work, or those who will. So i won’t be providing a half dozen names today, but if you look into it you may very well find them yourself via the references i’ve provided at the linked post below.

At face value the out of context English language quotes may seem to support a belief in freewill by some of the early church fathers. Ideally one would read the remarks in their original languages - usually Latin or Koine Greek - to see if there is any merit to the English translations you’ve provided. And read everything alleged to be written by all ECF to see if they are consistent or contradict themselves & each other re freewill. That’s beyond my capabilities & an endeavor that could take a lifetime.

I would guess that “very many” opponents of freewill would be a number much greater than the small number of 14 different authors you have quoted English renderings of. And therefore would include many of your typical laymen of the day, possibly a church majority.

The church had centuries to delete any references by church fathers to doctrines it didn’t approve of. As it is said, the conquerors write history. Although does not number two on your list refer to one such rejecter of freewill & at roughly about the same time as Clement of Alexandria?

AFAIK Origen’s concern was that a denial of freewill would lead to sin. Perhaps he would have had a different attitude living in the 21st century after comparing the churches that believe in freewill & those that deny freewill.

See also my previous response to you on this same topic here:

Re: Poll: Can I be a Calvinist and a Universalist?
by Origen; » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:12 am

by Paidion » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:52 am


#1242

If you want to prove free will doesn’t exist, just prove that zombies are theologically and scientifically possible :wink:

And let me share this article I’ve share previously, from the Patheos evangelical newsletter:

What Should Christians Think about Satan, Demons, and Zombies?

Please. This is important! Watch the 15 minute video - by the seminary trained minister. :exclamation:

Let me quote a bit - from the accompanying article

P.S. Some folks here might not like the “Hollywood make-believe”, zombie GIF images. So if I can substitute a “cartoon” variation instead, I will do so. :laughing:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/plantsvszombies/images/c/c8/Zombiedance2.gif/revision/latest?cb=20150625181857


#1243

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