The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Non sequitar. (It does not follow). There was, in fact, a beginning. The first act of God marked the beginning of time. That act was His begetting of His Son. There was no “before” this first act, since there was no time prior to the act.

Although the preposition “προς” often means (perhaps usually means) “toward,” to so translate it in this context makes no sense. Actually “with God” does make sense. If Mike agrees with Joe, he might say, “I’m with you Joe,” to indicate his agreement. The Logos, the Son of God, agrees with His Father in ALL matters, and so He is with His Father in this sense, much more than any human being is “with” another in the same sense.

It is incorrect to so translate it. “God” has no article, and so doesn’t refer to the true God, the one that Jesus addressed in His prayer. Also the word order, placing “God” before the verb indicated that “God” or “Divinity” is the kind of thing the Logos was—His very essence.

This Greek form occurs elsewhere in the New Testament. Here are some examples:

1.The clause “God is love” occurs in 1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16. In both instances the word order is “ὁ θεος ἀγαπη ἐστιν” (The God love is). This word order (placing “love” before the verb “is”) indicates that “love” is the kind of thing God is—His very essence.

  1. “ὁ λογος ὁ σος ἀληθεια ἐστιν”— literally “The word the [one] of you truth is” (Your word is truth). Again by placing “truth” before “is”, implies that truth is the kind of thing God’s word is. Truth is the very essence of His word.

Whatever Martin Luther’s faults (persecution of Jews and Anabaptists), he was a good Greek scholar. Here is his brief assessment of
“θεος ἠν ὁ λογος”:

Sabellianism was the early form of what is now called “Modalism.” It is the teaching that God is one divine Person who expresses Himself in three modes: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So their view is that John 1:1 is saying that the Logos is God Himself. But if that were John’s meaning, he would have written:

ὁ λογος ἠν ὁ θεος (The Logos was the God)," with the article “the” before “God.” So as Luther affirmed, the lack of an article is against this interpretation.

If John’s meaning was that the Logos was just another God besides the Father (as Luther believed Arius to have held), he would have written:
ὁ λογος ἠν θεος (The Logos was a God). Indeed, this is the very rendering found in the New World Translation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. But the placing of “God” before “was” does not permit that rendering.

The word order and lack of an article implies a translation something like this:

“The Logos was God essence” or “The Logos was divinity” or even “The Logos was divine.”

Oooops! :open_mouth: :blush: :unamused: Like all Eusebius’ quibbles, when held to consistency they all vanish in a vapour… ppphh :sunglasses:

Quite simply… because sin wrought an interference to man’s ability to walk naturally according to His will; thus God’s corrective injunctions to do so. Sometimes along the way He in His mercy has needed to provide a deterministic nudge in the right direction. It’s not rocket science.

Of course humanity has FREEWILL… we just don’t all get to taste of it equally as we would like, BUT it is FREEWILL nonetheless, i.e., another’s (free) will may be stronger than ours… no one trumps God’s FREEWILL.

There are certain laws in place that impinge on man’s freewill, however to the degree that man’s freewill can triumph over said laws man’s freewill will, up until whatever enables man’s freewill to defy said laws, and thus the greater standing law prevails.

Eusebius… I know you don’t like “make-believe scenarios” apparently, although when convenient you use them yourself; but man for example, by his freewill can choose to defy the law of gravity and will do so up the point he can maintain that which causes him do to so. However, that ability unlike the law of gravity is not limitless and in the end will triumph over the act of man’s freewill.

God has given humanity FREEWILL within the bounds of His choosing… to the degree man moves within those pre-set boundaries he has FREEWILL. When my children were small they had freewill to move wherever they so freely chose in my back yard… they did not have the same freewill beyond the markers I set. IF they of the OWN FREEWILL chose to defy said boundaries certain consequences could come into play.

Given that no one is an auto-bot it is only natural and normal for one/some to push the bounds and limits and experience said consequences… it’s the NATURE of God-given freewill, which to varying degrees can be exercised.

God created the eons in Christ Jesus. Therefore since the eons mark out time, and since God created that which marks out time, God therefore existed before time.
The first act of God did not mark the beginning of time. That came later when He created the eons.

Oooops! :open_mouth: :blush: :unamused: Like all Eusebius’ quibbles, when held to consistency they all vanish in a vapour… ppphh :sunglasses:

But man was created flesh and soulish. God knew in advance that in so doing they would not have a will that is free to not be at enmity to Him:
Rom 8:7 because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able."
Rom 8:8 Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.

And Adam said of the woman “this is flesh of my flesh.”

God’s corrective injunctions are to prove to man he is incapable of pleasing God just as the giving of the law to Israel was not to prove they could do it but that they could not. It is rocket science . . . to some.

Only in Alice’s Wonderland does man have freewill. Even God doesn’t have freewill. He does not have the free will to lie. “God is not a man that He should lie.” God is love. God cannot go against the dictates of love. “Love is never lapsing.” Therefore God’s love cannot have a freedom to lapse.

Just saying so does not prove so. How about this: Man’s will is the will of the flesh (the Bible says so John 1:13; Ephesians 2:3) and so we know man is not able to please God because he is made of flesh (the Bible says so [Romans 8:7,8 if you don’t believe me]).

Man by his will, a will which is at enmity to God, can build a plane and defy gravity. But that does not prove his will is free.

No, God gave man the will of the flesh, a will which is at enmity to God. I really wish you could see this.

And I can just as easily say: Given that all mankind was created flesh and that flesh is at enmity to God and cannot please God, it is normal for mankind to run from God “all avoid Him.” It is just that if some do please God it is because God had to intervene in their lives so they could please Him. He had to overwhelm their will like He did Saul’s.

Eusebius and Oregin. Forget picking sides - either philosophically or theologically - regarding free will vs determinism.

Pretend that I am Curly Howard, of the Three Stooges. And Moe is saying to him:

Suppose a Biker Gang member goes to prison. And he converts to Christianity, after attending a prison church service. What is happening in this conversion, both on God’s side and on the human side, when this occurs? What is God doing? What is Christ doing? What exactly - if anything - is the man (or perhaps woman) doing (in addition to thinking, experiencing and feeling)? How exactly is this conversion taking place and why?

And it’s not a “make believe scenario” (actually, nothing I share is a “make believe scenario”), because it has happened in the past - and probably currently.

Explain it, so even Curly will understand it. :smiley:

Let’s dedicate a song to this - Marvin Gaye - What’s Going On. :laughing:

or

youtube.com/watch?v=H-kA3UtBj4M

Paidion has a really cool gif of a shaking head… where is it when I need.

The REALLY bizarre thing is you actually believe this weird stuff you’re making up. :open_mouth: :unamused:

Freewill has nothing to do with one’s ability nor inability to perform some give task… all manufactured examples or scenarios striving to clain this totally miss the point. Freewill is ALL ABOUT the ability to choice freely… no more no less.

I explained it simple enough.
Man’s will is the will of the flesh.
The flesh is at enmity to God.
The flesh cannot please God.
“All avoid Him.”
Therefore man’s will is not free. It is in bondage to the flesh.

Any questions?

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But God does not just willy nilly take away human life. Since the Bible says “all our days are numbered” God takes away life when the time is right.
Since He declares the end from the beginning, He has already declared when each life will begin and end. Therefore He acts in accord with what He has declared. Therefore His acts are not free from cause. If He does not punish, it is not due to nothing. There would have to be something causing Him not to punish, and therefore the decision not to would prove the choice was not free.

Nonetheless . . . The Bible doesn’t say God does causeless things.

Yes - several. Simple ones, mind you. And I hope you answer them:

How does a Christian conversion take place? I really don’t understand it - from your perspective.
OK. You (and any associates, like Jeff and Origen), have presented your case, arguments, Biblical exegesis and summation. Those who would buy into your position, would probably have done so by now. What do you hope to accomplish, by continuing this thread? Hasn’t the jury seen the “evidence”, as presented by the defense and prosecution, and can make up their own minds by now?
Isn’t continuing this thread, like flogging a dead horse?
Can you name any historical or contemporary, known church father, theologian, philosopher, etc., that shares your Biblical perspective?
How do you intend to enlighten humanity to the truth, as you see it? Write a book? Host your own forum? Try to get on a TV or Radio talk show? Visit other forums, like the one Matt Slick Hosts at CARM (i.e. hint! Hint!)? In other words, how do you plan “to get the show on the road, so to speak”?
It’s Labor Day weekend and you are from Michigan. Don’t you have any holiday plans? I do. It’s joining family members and friends for Labor Day activities.

Just the way it has been taking place.

Maybe but sometimes flogging a dead horse is necessary. God willed the dead horse be flogged and so flogged it must.

Martin Luther. Please read “Bondage of the Will.”

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51RykzJd1BL.SX342_BO1,204,203,200.jpg
I’m sure Calvin believes in the Sovereignty of God as did Jesus and Paul and James and the Old Testament writers.

I just want to share my thoughts here. That’s good enough for me.

Normally it is but I had other important things to do than go out of state to visit family. I visited friends in church this morning and played guitar there. Later I will watch Notre Dame vs. Texas with friends. Besides, God didn’t will me to go visit family. :slight_smile:

Well, Luther maintained that faith was necessary to get where He wanted you to go, so we have to ask is this faith a work? In other words, do I have to have my free will mojo happening for the faith stuff to be doing it’s thing? :astonished:

BEFORE time??? According to the Oxford dictionary, “before” means “a period of time preceding a particular event.”
So “before time” suggests a period of time before time began. Let’s say that time begat at point P. If there was any time before P, then P was NOT the beginning of time, but some point before that. CONTRADICTION!

BEFORE time??? According to the Oxford dictionary, “before” means “a period of time preceding a particular event.”
So “before time” suggests a period of time before time began. Let’s say that time begat at point P. If there was any time before P, then P was NOT the beginning of time, but some point before that. CONTRADICTION!

To say that we are all sinners by nature makes no sense to me whatsoever. If this is so, we would have no sin. As was mentioned, a leopard cannot change his spots, and neither does the leopard sin when he kills and eats his prey. Man is not a sinner by nature. We are born of the righteousness of God, for we are made in His image. The reason we feel the pain and guilt of sin is because we have gone against our very nature. In this sense, we are actually slaves to righteousness. We do have the free will to go against God. However, in doing so we become slaves to sin and end up destroying ourselves in the process. Either way, we are slaves, as it says in Romans 6:16:“Do you not know that too whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?” Since one cannot serve two masters, by free will we make the choice.
The idea that we are all sinners by nature and have no free will has been used throughout the ages as a method of control by those who wish to exert their free will over others. I would say this: Discovering that we have free will is one of the worst things to have happened to humanity. discovering that we have free will is one of the best things to have happened to humanity.

Just an interesting thought here. For 1600 years or so, the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Churches, were the ONLY players in town. Then the Protestant reformation came along and they claim to have brought the true understanding. The only problem is that each reformer, claims to have their version, of what the full truth is. Now there is a thread opened up, where someone claims to bring their version of truth - “the real understanding” - to light regarding the Bible. And they really never did establish why the Protestant canon of scripture is true, but the EO and RC canons are not. If they have “found the truth”, then why has God determined mankind should spend 2000 years or so, in versions that are not the truth?

I guess I end with a Bible verse: Proverbs 12:19 - New Living Translation

Or to put it simply. If what they say here is truth, it will stand the test of time. Just the same as it would, with any “man made discovery”. Whether it be a work of literature or philosophy, a scientific discovery, etc. And theologians, philosophers and churches will get on board, since it has been pointed out - “the error of their ways”.

The Oxford dictionary is not inspired.

1Co_2:7 but we are speaking God’s wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory,

Since the eons mark out time and since God existed before the eons, we know God existed before time was being marked out.

I’m not sure what this has to do with God being sovereign.

Right, the Bible doesn’t say we are all sinners by nature. But it does say “all sin and are wanting of the glory of God.” They question must be asked: “Why do all sin?” According to Romans 5:12 this is due to death being passed through into all mankind and for that, all sin.

We don’t have a free will to go against God. We have a will which causes us to go against God because it is the will of the flesh. The flesh can’t please God. Therefore our will cannot please God.

Actually it is by God’s will that the choice is made for us. He makes us either vessels of honor or dishonor.

If we just stick with the Scriptures, we will discover we have a will and that will is the will of the flesh and the flesh is at enmity to God and therefore our wills are at enmity to God and therefore not free.

I’m not sure WHY you errantly believe freewill somehow challenges sovereignty… in the end man’s (free) will is subject to God’s (free) will.