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Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Evangelical Universalism
#435

Just to be clear: I myself am not a full preterist. I believe that the Second Coming of Christ is still future. He could return today, a year from now, a century from now, a millennium from now, a million years from now, a billion years from now, etc. We have no idea when.

I do not think that any particular length of time would ipso facto be too long for the “last days”. I think the term simply means “the last era before the Second Coming”. Before Pentecost in Acts 2, there were still specific things that had to happen before the Second Coming could happen. But once the Holy Spirit descended on the 120 believers (in fulfillment of Christ’s prophecy), it has been clear skies ahead. Nothing remains that has to happen before the Second Coming. We can no longer say, “Ah, the Second Coming can’t be this afternoon, because X hasn’t occurred yet.”

Now that we are in the era of “the Second Coming can happen at any moment because all the other prophecies have been fulfilled”, we are therefore in the last era, we are in the last days. The last days have lasted 1,986 years so far, and we have no idea how long it will be until they are complete.

#436

The new heavens and earth began in 70 A.D. but it hasn’t reached it’s consummation yet. We know this because there is still death. In the Old Testament the New heavens and earth is described at a point in it’s evolution where there is death:

Notice there’s still death at this point. But we haven’t reached this point yet. When it’s fully consummated there will be no death.

#437

The proper title for your position - I believe (and Davo can correct me) is Partial Preterism, as discussed by Got Questions site at Is partial preterism biblical? What do partial preterists believe?. Actually, I can understand Partial Preterism. I just have a harder time with Full Preterism and other named variations.

They do raise an interesting question - in their response:

But like I said in another thread, I’m more in accord with establish theological positions - whether historical or contempory. Hence, my liking for the Holy Fools tradition, which got its start with the Russian Orthodox Church. And I’m also a big fan, of mystical and philosophical theology.

My biggest problem is with RYO (i.e. Roll Your Own) theological positions. Somethings even a Holy Fool theologian and P-Zombie philosopher (like me), has trouble understanding them. :exclamation: :laughing:

#438

Thank you, Geoffrey, for sharing your understanding of “the last days.”

Okay. Then I wonder what you make of the following passage. It seems to me, that it teaches that the Antichrist must first come:

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. (2 Thess 2:1-10 ESV)

However, if you are a preterist of any stripe, maybe you think the Antichrist came in the first century in the person of Nero.

#439

Dear Paidion,

Here I must admit to ignorance. On this passage I follow George MacDonald’s advice of humbly leaving a passage that puzzles me temporarily aside until more light is shed on it for me. I have faith that understanding will come. A great number of biblical passages used to be opaque to me but now fill me with understanding and rejoicing.

As you know, I believe every word of the Orthodox liturgies (including, of course, the biblical passages as read in them). In all my experience of participating in the liturgies and in reading their texts I do not remember ever coming across any idea that anything remains that must occur before the Second Coming. My overall impression of the liturgy is one of joy, in which the imminence of Christ’s Second Coming plays a part. (By “imminence” I mean that it could occur at any moment, not that it necessarily will.)

I must admit that a lot of wind would be taken out of my sails if I thought some figure of great evil must precede the Second Coming. Instead of watching for Christ I would be watching for Antichrist. Such an attitude would strike a very wrong chord with me.

#440

The full prêterist understanding as to “the last days” was none other than the end of the old covenant age – thus “the last days” were indeed AD30-70 (a 40yr biblical generation). Or as Paul puts it to his audience who no doubt took such to heart as germane TO THEM… “on whom the ends of the ages HAVE come” – NOT “will” BUT “have come” (1Cor 10:11). IOW… THEY were living IN ‘the last days’ (of the old covenant world) not those beyond. You see the fulfilled perspective is a balanced fusion of both biblical context and actual history.

Nero is one option OR quite possibly the factious renegade high priest/s who were fighting to offer sacrifices till the end.

Either way one thing IS for sure… IF the “the day of the Lord” as understood by them was a material universe-ending event, as per futurism, then HOW could THEY have been “quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us” … “***to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.***”? Any smart thinking person would have logically deduced that IF THAT had been the case THEN such would be SELF EVIDENT… it wasn’t, BECAUSE, “the day of the Lord” was all about THE END OF THE OLD COVENANT universe/world/age. It’s not rocket science.

#441

This post could be required reading for all who believe salvation via free will.

Jeff, I wouldn’t call it a hope but rather an expectation that God will save all. I expect it to be so. I consider it sure and certain.

Yes, the will of man is to run and hide. Paul in his letter to the Romans said “All avoid Him.” God must interfere in their lives to save them as He did us. He must intercept us as we run from Him and then change our will by changing our heart. But I don’t think He changes us by constantly badgering us.

Exactly correct Jeff!
Some who believe in free will believe God will keep going after people who run from Him until they finally break, even if it takes an eternity to finally break. But that characterizes God as some sort of stalker Who won’t take “No” for an answer.

#442

That "the consummation of the eons have attained to us (the believers of the uncircumcision) does not mean God has already saved all mankind and that all mankind are now resurrected from the grave, given immortality and incorruption, have been subjected to Christ and God is now All in all. Rather we see the world at enmity to God.
What Paul was getting at in making the statement that the consummations of the eons have attained to us is that we believers of the uncircumcision already at least reckon ourselves to be dead to sin yet alive to God. We already consider ourselves to be at peace with God (the rest of mankind must wait till the consummation of the eons for that). We consider ourselves to be in the new creation in Christ Jesus NOW rather than waiting for it to come for all mankind at the consummation of the eons. Dig?

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#443

I think I do.
Until the next person posts, when maybe I don’t.
Confusing.

#444

Dig :question: :question: :laughing: :laughing:

#445

Like beatnik language. Do you dig it, DaveB :question: :laughing:

And now I’m off, to have tea or coffee, with some Beatnik Zombies. Don’t you love it :exclamation: :laughing:

#446

I was using ‘hope’ as Biblically defined, not the current cultural meaning. Most people use ‘hope’ today as a synonym for ‘wish’. However, this is not the meaning of the word in the Bible, which is is ‘certain expectation or confidence’ as you say. So when I say I have ‘great hope’ that all will be saved it is not a wishful possibility, but a confident expectation and certainty! Can hardly wait! :slight_smile:

#447

Well… in my late teens and early twenties, I read the Bible a lot and thought I had pretty well everything figured out. But gradually, over the years, I learned that I was wrong in many issues. I’m glad I learned. If we don’t continue to learn, we’ll stagnate.

Irenæus (A.D.120-202) also addressed the matter at hand. He, too, quoted much of the passage from 2 Thessalonians that I quoted. (Against Heresies ch.XXV, XXVI) and also believed that Antichrist would appear prior to the coming of Christ.

In verse 8, Paul wrote, “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.” That certainly seems to indicate that Antichrist will appear shortly before the return of Christ, and then Christ will destroy him.

The eschatological position of second-century Christians (including Irenæus) is known in today’s theological terms as “historic premillenialism.” That is my position as well.

#448

Again you make the mistake of reading INTO the text what’s not there… this above was applicable to the firstfruit saints in the consummation of Israel’s redemption… from which THEN flowed the greater reconciliation of humanity.

You should maybe own your royal “we” as in… YOU “see the world at enmity to God.” BUT from God’s perspective, and His is the one that counts, 2Cor 5:19 says differently. Unbelieving man only thinks he’s at enmity (Col 1:21) but that thinking is a false reality as the reconciliation ALREADY took place “…through the blood of His cross” as per Col 1:20.

#449

Davo said:

[size=150]OH YEH [/size] :exclamation: :smiley:

#450

THAT’s the sticking point for those of us who were brought up, Sunday after Sunday, both services, plus in the youth group etc. - all with the “Come to Jesus” moment at the ends, ‘every eye closed, every head bowed’ - NEVER a word about the victory Christ has won, because that victory was only for those who did ‘come forward’ and even after that, God was just waiting for you to screw up so you had to go through the whole thing again: obviously it did not ‘take’ the first time, or the second, third, Nth…
I still don’t know how to handle what you are saying. How does it affect the Gospel call to those who are not yet believers? Is there an invitation to “know Christ”, get forgiven, all that?

#451

For folks who want to know more, here is the explanation by What is historic premillennialism?. My hat is off to Paidion, for running with an established, historical theological position. :smiley:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTNPP0fwA05JdTBKLbv59ckfd16yNreEL_XnvfaldIrr8-owsIangvcxTc

http://www.myspacehippo.com/files/comments/congratulations/MShippo37915.jpg

Now I got to get back to the zombies. :exclamation: :laughing:

#452

Sorry. My previous reply got posted twice. So I’ll just leave the zombie hat image. :exclamation: :laughing:

#453

THAT’s the sticking point for those of us who were brought up, Sunday after Sunday, both services, plus in the youth group etc. - all with the “Come to Jesus” moment at the ends, ‘every eye closed, every head bowed’ - NEVER a word about the victory Christ has won, because that victory was only for those who did ‘come forward’ and even after that, God was just waiting for you to screw up so you had to go through the whole thing again: obviously it did not ‘take’ the first time, or the second, third, Nth…
I still don’t know how to handle what you are saying. How does it affect the Gospel call to those who are not yet believers? Is there an invitation to “know Christ”, get forgiven, all that?

#454

YOu are making the mistake of reading INTO the text what’s not there. There is nothing in that text even intimating what you are suggesting.

No, 2 Corinthians 5:19 has it that God is conciliated to the world. The Greek word for “reconcile” is “apokatallaso.” In 2 Cor.5:19 it is only “katallaso.” It is a one sided peace. This is why God uses us as ambassadors to entreat the world to be conciliated to God:

Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation, how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation." For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ’s sake, “Be conciliated to God!”
(2Co 5:18-20)

Also Colossians 1:20 is different than what you state:

Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens."

“to reconcile all” is incomplete. It is yet future. 1:21 has just believers reconciled NOW.
Col 1:21 And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles"

Dig it, dadyo? :smiley: Like, groovy man.

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