Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

davo · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

Yep Chad, this special knowledge claimed by special people once had a name… ‘Gnosticism’

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

Just a footnote here. It’s also know by the Wiki article name of Esoteric Christianity. Wiki defines it this way:

Which is where I also have issues with Mormonism. In addition to their added Book of Mormon revelation and Eternal Progression teaching…They also have secret temple practices - which are off limits, to the public.

I also like the Protestant site Patheos article at Solo Scriptura vs. Sola Scriptura. I don’t mind Solo Scriptura that much - it’s an established view. But I do share the author’s concerns with “Solo Scriptura”.

That’s precisely the concern I raised in my analysis of the 2014 report—the idea that many Christians seem to think saying Sola Scriptura is the ultimate authority somehow means it is my personal “solo” reading of Scripture that is authoritative. They reject the witness of the Church down through the ages in favor of a personal, private understanding of Scripture (which is not at all what the reformers meant by the term “Scripture alone”). Consequently, we see that many Evangelicals deny that the historic Church’s creeds and confessions have any relevance today. In fact, the 2016 report indicates that 23 percent percent of Evangelicals believe “there is little value in studying or reciting historical Christian creeds and confessions,” while a further 9 percent are unsure.

Because they privilege their own personal understanding of Scripture over the historic witness of the Church, it’s not surprising that Evangelicals deny that their congregation should have any meaningful authority over them: For example, 57 percent denied that their local church should have “the authority to withhold the Lord’s Supper from me and exclude me from the fellowship of the church.” In other words, Evangelicals believe the Bible is authoritative; and that authority is mediated by individual believers, rather than the church (even though the Bible explicitly says that authority is to be exercised by the church—e.g., Matthew 18:15-17, 1 Corinthians 5:11-13, Titus 3:10-11, etc.)

http://www.shannonburns.com/Toon542+.gif

davo · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

Thanks HFPZ… very interesting.

maintenanceman · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

Yepper

Eusebius · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

But I’m not a Gnostic and neither was Jesus or Paul.

Got any other ignorant guilt by association fallacies to throw our way? Geesh!

davo · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

“our way” lol… I wasn’t associating Jesus or Paul with you.

So… apart from what seems obvious by your words, what then did you mean by “The truths of Paul are not for whom you call “the common man.” The “common man” cannot perceive the spiritual treasures in the Scriptures unless God gives it to them.” ???

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

To which I add a concern, from the Patheos article I just read entitled Four Ways Every Pastor Is a Theologian:

How can the pastors (and priests, Bishops, etc.) of the world, follow Paul’s counsel, if they don’t understand him? Aren’t they leading the common man astray then?

http://www.irrationalscientist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Truth-cartoon2.jpg

maintenanceman · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

Eusebius Said:

Actually since I started the controversy I would like you to explain what you mean?

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

You can find it at the Wiki article at List of fallacies:

I guess I should think about the word “property”. If I buy a condo that’s sold by Donald Trump (and he owns a condo, in his building of condos), then can we say that this Holy Fool and Donald Trump - are the same

or

youtube.com/watch?v=HzvuuUuvoIM

maintenanceman · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

So I will quote myself:

Are you above the common man?

Eusebius · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

I already explained why. If you are too stupid to understand my former post as to why, then don’t bother asking me.

Eusebius · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

Do you know what “guilt by association” is?

The poster said: "Yep Chad, this special knowledge claimed by special people once had a name… ‘Gnosticism’ :unamused:"

That is guilt by association as if I too am Gnostic or related to Gnosticism.

maintenanceman · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

Eusebius said

First of all, is it my association with Davo, that has you riled or my insistence that you explain your position relating to your arrogance.

Unfortunately, you have danced around the question, but I will ask it again ‘are you above the common man’ because your previous posts would tend to allude to such a position.

Come on…

Let’s hear what you have to say

Paidion · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

Generally, I agree that most of the New Testament writings as well as those of the Apostolic Fathers were written by those whom tradition suggests. Yet, I think there may be exceptions. I doubt that Hebrews was written by Paul. The Greek style differs from that of Paul.

By the way, thanks for that link to Amazon concerning the book The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translation Page I am considering purchasing it.

Paidion · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

Okay Geoffrey, I ordered the book! Since I live in Canada, I ordered it from Amazon.ca. Together with postal charges (they’re high in Canada), I paid around $30 CAD for it.

davo · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

I ordered a copy as well though my copy is coming from thebookdepository in Britain for the same cost… just got to wait about 2wks or so.

LLC · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

I would say that wisdom is basically what we call common sense. God doesn’t hide the truth from anyone. The word is in all of us. Take a good look around. The truth is right before our very eyes for all to see, that is if we get our heads out of the clouds and have the common sense to see it. The emperor has no clothes!

Eusebius · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

Sorry, sometimes I get a little short with some who incorporate fallacies into their posts in order to make the other poster look bad such as using guilt by association and poisoning of the well.

Paul’s epistles are not for the common man but for believers who have had their eyes opened by God. The common man is unregenerated. He is soulish, not spiritual.

1Co_2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."

Yet you, beloved, remember the declarations which have been declared before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they said to you, In the last time will be coming scoffers, going according to their own irreverent desires." These are those who isolate themselves, soulish, not having the spirit." (Jud 1:17-19)

One needs the spirt of God and Christ in order to understand the Scriptures.

Eusebius · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

I am curious why you say “God doesn’t hide the truth from anyone” when Jesus said God does hide the truth from people? I even quoted Jesus saying that. Here, I’ll quote Him again:

Mat_11:25 At that season, answering, Jesus said, "I am acclaiming Thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for Thou hidest these things from the wise and intelligent and Thou dost reveal them to minors.

And Jesus was in cahoots with His Father by speaking in parables to hide the truth from the common Israelite but only the enlightened ones got the parable after He explained it to them.

anon47460357 · March 9, 2018, 3:26am

Paidion:

Hi Geoffrey:

But why do we believe that it was Matthew the Apostle himself who wrote the Gospel of Matthew, and why do we believe that it was St. Clement of Rome himself who wrote I Clement? Because in both cases the ascription is ancient and uncontested. Nobody ever wrote, “Oh, we don’t know who wrote this.” Nobody ever ascribed Matthew’s Gospel to Bartholomew, and nobody ever ascribed I Clement to Barnabas.

If we argue against the traditional authorship of the Apostolic Fathers, we adopt the arguments that the non-Christian skeptics use to deny the traditional authorship of the New Testament writings. Either the argument works too well (in which case why be Christian at all?), or the argument doesn’t work (which I believe to be the case).

Generally, I agree that most of the New Testament writings as well as those of the Apostolic Fathers were written by those whom tradition suggests. Yet, I think there may be exceptions. I doubt that Hebrews was written by Paul. The Greek style differs from that of Paul.

By the way, thanks for that link to Amazon concerning the book The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translation Page I am considering purchasing it.

You’re very welcome.

I do not press too hard on insisting on accepting all ancient attributions without exception. I think one can make cogent arguments against particular cases here and there. My argument is that, in the main, the ancient attributions are solid. I am particularly against the idea of accepting the ancient attributions solely and entirely for canonical documents, but then on a dime turning into a hardened skeptic and making a blanket denial of the ancient attributions of the writings of the Apostolic Fathers. This gets pretty strange, such as blithely accepting that II Peter was written by the Apostle Peter, but then denying that St. Clement of Rome wrote I Clement, even though the case is stronger for the latter attribution.

What I particularly like about that book that you and Davo have ordered is the Greek text on facing pages. It is so helpful. The Greek makes it clear that the Apostolic Fathers, like the Apostles, wrote of “lasting correction” rather than of “everlasting punishment”, and of “the grave” rather than of “Hell”, etc.