The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Well… it is and it isn’t. You can find in the Old Testament that as a test of a true prophet. But you can also find instances in the Old Testament in which a true prophet prophesied things that didn’t happen. For example, Jonah prophesied that Nineveh would be overthrown in 40 days. It wasn’t because God changed his mind when He saw that the people of Nineveh had repented.

Here’s a queer but interesting story from 1 Kings 13. It seems that an old prophet from Bethel, lied to a man of God. Then he prophesied to the man of God his death for disobedience. Then the man of God’s death came about just as the prophet predicted. After that, the old prophet bemoaned the death of the man of God, and asked his sons to bury him, the prophet, when he died, beside the man of God. There is no indication in the text as to WHY the old prophet lied to the man of God.

6 And the king said to the man of God, “Entreat now the favor of the LORD your God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored to me.” And the man of God entreated the LORD, and the king’s hand was restored to him and became as it was before.
7 And the king said to the man of God, “Come home with me, and refresh yourself, and I will give you a reward.”
8 And the man of God said to the king, “If you give me half your house, I will not go in with you. And I will not eat bread or drink water in this place,
9 for so was it commanded me by the word of the LORD, saying, ‘You shall neither eat bread nor drink water nor return by the way that you came.’”
10 So he went another way and did not return by the way that he came to Bethel.
11 Now an old prophet lived in Bethel. And his sons came and told him all that the man of God had done that day in Bethel. They also told to their father the words that he had spoken to the king.
12 And their father said to them, “Which way did he go?” And his sons showed him the way that the man of God who came from Judah had gone.
13 And he said to his sons, “Saddle the donkey for me.” So they saddled the donkey for him and he mounted it.
14 And he went after the man of God and found him sitting under an oak. And he said to him, “Are you the man of God who came from Judah?” And he said, “I am.”
15 Then he said to him, “Come home with me and eat bread.”
16 And he said, “I may not return with you, or go in with you, neither will I eat bread nor drink water with you in this place,
17 for it was said to me by the word of the LORD, ‘You shall neither eat bread nor drink water there, nor return by the way that you came.’”
18 And he said to him, “I also am a prophet as you are, and an angel spoke to me by the word of the LORD, saying, ‘Bring him back with you into your house that he may eat bread and drink water.’” But he lied to him.
19 So he went back with him and ate bread in his house and drank water.
20 And as they sat at the table, the word of the LORD came to the prophet who had brought him back.
21 And he cried to the man of God who came from Judah, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Because you have disobeyed the word of the LORD and have not kept the command that the LORD your God commanded you,
22 but have come back and have eaten bread and drunk water in the place of which he said to you, “Eat no bread and drink no water,” your body shall not come to the tomb of your fathers.’”
23 And after he had eaten bread and drunk, he saddled the donkey for the prophet whom he had brought back.
24 And as he went away a lion met him on the road and killed him. And his body was thrown in the road, and the donkey stood beside it; the lion also stood beside the body.
25 And behold, men passed by and saw the body thrown in the road and the lion standing by the body. And they came and told it in the city where the old prophet lived.
26 And when the prophet who had brought him back from the way heard of it, he said, “It is the man of God who disobeyed the word of the LORD; therefore the LORD has given him to the lion, which has torn him and killed him, according to the word that the LORD spoke to him.”
27 And he said to his sons, “Saddle the donkey for me.” And they saddled it.
28 And he went and found his body thrown in the road, and the donkey and the lion standing beside the body. The lion had not eaten the body or torn the donkey.
29 And the prophet took up the body of the man of God and laid it on the donkey and brought it back to the city to mourn and to bury him.
30 And he laid the body in his own grave. And they mourned over him, saying, “Alas, my brother!”
31 And after he had buried him, he said to his sons, “When I die, bury me in the grave in which the man of God is buried; lay my bones beside his bones.
32 For the saying that he called out by the word of the LORD against the altar in Bethel and against all the houses of the high places that are in the cities of Samaria shall surely come to pass.”

Do you see no difference between predicting future events and causing future events?

Astronomers correctly predicted that Halley’s comet would, in 1910, be a prominent astronomical sight in the sky, and so it came to pass. Does this imply that the astronomers caused the comet to appear?

But there is a chosen race . . . the Israelites. And now, while Israel is set aside, there are ones chosen in Christ.

So we have to be politically correct even when dealing with the Scriptures and how God chooses humans? LOL. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way.

Blindness is still lying on Israel as a majority. That blindness God began in Isaiah’s day. God is still blinding the majority of them. Only those of the nations believe who are set for eonian life. Sorry, I didn’t make the rules.

And it is a universal rule according to Romans 11:32. . . God locks up all in stubbornness that He should be merciful to all.

God doesn’t just predict events. He causes all events to occur. “He is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will.” He doesn’t just see the end from the beginning. The Bible says He declares the end from the beginning. One Who declares the end from the beginning is the One Who controls the from the beginning to the end.

I don’t understand your question. If they are a true Christian then they are one of the chosen.
Also why can’t God, in our day, reveal the truth to uneducated fools but not reveal those same truths to trained theologians. He did it with the 12 disciples verses the trained Phairsees and Sadducees. Or are you saying that God is unfair to do that? Hint: It’s God’s world, not yours.

HFPZ wrote:

“Not all are apostles. Not all are prophets. Not all are teachers. Not all have powers. Not all have the graces of healing. Not all are speaking languages. Not all are interpreting. Yet be zealous for the greater graces. And still I am showing you a path, suited to transcendence.”
(1Co 12:29-31)

You have to ask God that. I believe He knows what He is doing. Why should God reveal the riches of the treasures of spiritual blessings in Christ to the common man who is un regenerated and unsaved? He couldn’t know them because he is soulish and fleshly. I’ve already gone over this. How many times must I reiterate my position before you get it?

Paidion. Look at the article at When a PROPHET SPEAKS and his words DO NOT come to pass. Then in light of what you just shared, give insight into these following verses, the article talking about. Do these verses reflect, what you shared, by this sentence?

Here are the verses, from the article:

Also, how do you respond in general, to the article author?

This question is also discussed on Yahoo Answers (and other articles, by the way) at Were any of God’s prophets ever wrong about a single thing?

eusebius said:

Holy Moly :exclamation: :open_mouth:

WHAT AN ASTONISHING STATEMENT!

Do you really believe that God causes the torture and rape of little girls? What possible “good” could arise out of such events? Obviously none! And if there were any, is that the ONLY way God could cause that good to come about? Does He who is omnipotent not have the power to bring about such good without first causing such horrible suffering?

Not only that, but there are scriptures that show that some events occurred that were UNEXPECTED by God. Here is an example:

The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: “Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the whore? And I thought, ‘After she has done all this she will return to me,’ but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. (Jeremiah 3:6,7 ESV)

God THOUGHT she would return, but she did not return! Or even if the word is translated as “said” instead of “thought” the fact still holds. If God SAID she would return (and God cannot lie), and she didn’t, then He didn’t know that she would return.

Hardly astonishing. God is not a mere future reader, but a future writer. However, we have been over all this before, so I am not so there is much productive persuasion remaining unless we can hit this at a new angle.

As I understand it “there WAS a chosen race” and chosen FOR a purpose, of which “in Christ” those firstfruits saints of THAT NT era fulfilled, completing that for which THEY were chosen in Christ i.e., for the redemption of Israel and in consequence the reconciliation of man. IOW… it’s a done deal already.

Again… such chosen OR NOT chosen was relative (past tense… which in the NT writings was obviously present tense for them at that time) to this outworking of redemption & reconciliation. IOW… you are globalising beyond the point of fulfilment something that was specific and yet is now complete.

Well, one has to ask… “what truths specifically are you actually referring to?” AND, are you therefore claiming status among said “uneducated fools”? Not only that… it appears your whole rationale around this is based off your own ponderings of “Also why can’t God…” — this assumes God hasn’t — is this an assumption on your part actually valid or true?

Not sure what you are referring to? :confused:

DaveB I could not respond to you pm :smiley:

Chad - my bad, I’ve changed the settings so you and others can pm me now. Thanks.

That is O K, thanks for the advice. I have found a friend.

The surf songs will be on there way soon… Life got in the way!

Peace :smiley:

Chad

I forgot what we were originally talking about. It’s the movie Free Willy and how God creates whales. Right? :laughing:

or

youtube.com/watch?v=cMydOQEqhqE

Right. Thousands of years before Christ was born, God declared how His Son would die. And Jesus said "Then said I, “Lo! I am arriving-In the summary of the scroll it is written concerning Me-To do Thy will, O God” (Heb 10:7).

And Jesus said, just before going to the cross, “Not My will but Thine be done”. So God declared how Jesus was to die and He made sure it would occur as He declared it.

God even declared many years before Judas was even born that He would be the one to give up Christ and do it for 30 pieces of silver and hang himself. Jesus forced Judas’ hand by commanding him “what thou doest, do quickly.” And God made sure Satan would enter Judas that instant so he would give up Christ so He would be crucified at the perfect hour for the Passover.

Act 1:16 said, "Men! Brethren! [size=150]Fulfilled must be the scripture[/size] in which the holy spirit said before through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who becomes the guide of those apprehending Jesus,

I’m beginning to see that there are some on this board who have had their eyes opened to see the truth and those who have not yet, at least as it regards God’s sovereignty. I wonder if they believe the bible concerning anything it states.

I’m beginning to see that the believers don’t have much in common with the unbelievers here. But you know what? God promises to bring all mankind into a realization of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4-6). It is just a matter of time.

Yea, God can say "I thought she would return but I knew she wouldn’t.

So tell me Paidion, and please, don’t obfuscate: Do you believe God just looked into the future and saw His Son dying on a cross or do you believe God willed His Son to go to the cross? Please be short and to the point.

Greatly astonishing, that there are people who actually believe that God is the author and source of all the wickedness in the world: the rapes, the tortures, the beating of slaves until they are covered with blood and have broken bones, the stabbings, the beheadings, the thefts, the insults, people being caused to live daily in fear, the poisonings, the killing of babies just before they are born, the murder of a woman by holding her over a hot stove until she died (this took place in the area in which I live)—God doing all this for some mysterious “deeper purpose” which He never reveals. Astonishing indeed!!!

You seem to have applied this passage to your thinking as if God declares the end from the beginning of everything that ever happens in the world.

Here is the context that fully explains what is meant:

Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. (Isaiah 46:9-11 NKJV)

Clearly God is saying that He declares the end from the beginning of His plans. What He intends to do, He will bring to pass, and He is able to say what He is going to do before He does it. This passage does NOT affirm that God brings to pass everything that has ever happened. God has no part in all the evil acts which fallen people continue to carry out.

You just proved me right.
"God doeth His will in the army of the heavens and with those dwelling on the earth and none can stay His hand or say to Him “What doest Thou?”

By the way, please notice Paidion didn’t answer my question.

I stated this to Paidion:
[size=150]**
So tell me Paidion, and please, don’t obfuscate: Do you believe God just looked into the future and saw His Son dying on a cross or do you believe God willed His Son to go to the cross? Please be short and to the point.**[/size]