Of course, A.E. Knoch (and other ministers), will have a different understanding - regarding these verses. And Larry Ollison does accept donations - like all Internet, TV and radio evangelists. But you don’t have to give to his ministry, to enjoy benefits - in the here and now
Being rich is not necessarily a curse or obstacle. It depends on what one does, with the money (i.e. helping the poor, Christian outreach, etc.). And your attachment to money and this world. After all, we did have rich Jewish leaders, in the Old testament. And a rich Christian, who helped with Christ’s burial (if I remember correctly).
How much of Donald Trump’s money, goes to Christian outreach and/or charity concerns
Donald Trump doesn’t concern me. He is not a minister.
If 2 Corinthians 8:9, which you quote above, is about Christ making believers millionaires by becoming poor, we’d all be financially rich.
Paul talks about “the nation’s riches” which are not financial riches but rather spiritual riches.
Yes, and rightly so that A.E. Knoch would have a different understanding which is more scriptural.
Here are the verses in Paul’s epistles concerning riches:
Rom_2:4 Or are you despising the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, being ignorant that the kindness of God is leading you to repentance?
Rom_9:23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory -"
Rom_11:12 Now if their offense is the world’s riches and their discomfiture the nations’ riches, how much rather that which fills them!"
Rom_11:33 O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!"
2Co_8:2 for, in a test of much affliction, the superabundance of their joy and the corresponding depth of their poverty superabounds to the riches of their generosity,
Eph_1:7 in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace,
Eph_1:18 the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, for you to perceive what is the expectation of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of the enjoyment of His allotment among the saints,
Eph_2:7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus."
Eph_3:8 To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations,
Eph_3:16 that He may be giving you, in accord with the riches of His glory, to be made staunch with power, through His spirit, in the man within,
Php_4:19 Now my God shall be filling your every need in accord with** His riches in glory in Christ Jesus**.
Col_1:27 to whom God wills to make known what are the glorious riches of this secret among the nations, which is: Christ among you, the expectation of glory"
Col_2:2 that their hearts may be consoled, being united in love, and to all** the riches of the assurance of understanding**, unto a realization of the secret of the God and Father, of Christ,
1Ti_6:17 Those who are rich in the current eon be charging not to be haughty, nor yet to rely on the dubiousness of riches, but on God, Who is tendering us all things richly for our enjoyment;"
Financial riches are dubious at best and fleeting. The riches of Christ is what remains. In this sense, I would take the riches of Christ over all the financial riches of the world.
Heck, one man I admire - is Ben Hart. He’s a direct response copywriter and marketer - now retired. And a devote Christian. And former Presidential speech writer. But he had talent for direct response copywriting. And made millions in royalties. If God gives someone a talent, should they not use it? Or should the Christian, just bury the talent or talents
1Ti_6:10 For a root of all of the evils is the fondness for money, which some, craving, were led astray from the faith and try themselves on all sides with much pain."
In Ben’s case - sited above. Money is not his main goal. He did what he did, because:
He liked doing it.
He was good at it.
But if he can make a lot of money at it. Or God’s gifts a lot of money. Should we decline it? It’s a side benefit. Like I shared before.
Anyway, I know about Ben’s Christian background. Since I was a member of his online marketing training - when he was active. Here is a full background at benhartmarketing.com/about-ben-hart.htm
1Ti_6:10 For a root of all of the evils is the fondness for money, which some, craving, were led astray from the faith and try themselves on all sides with much pain."
The apostle Paul says the root of all evils is the fondness for money. I think I’ll just trust the inspired word.
Of course if God gives someone a talent they should use it. But Paul told us that if we are poor we should not try to get riches because when one does that they are tried on all sides and causes one to be swamped in destruction. I have a friend who is extremely wealthy and who is Christian. His dad had a successful business and gave each child of his an equal share when he sold the business. My friend was good at investing and grew his money. But that is just the gift God have his dad and him. Sure, I’d like to have a few million bucks. But I am far richer in Christ than Bill Gates. Bill, if he is not in Christ is the pauper, not me.
I think the wisest counsel ever given - regarding both material things and gifts of the spirit - is this:
But I don’t think Joel Osteen misses the boat - all that much. The most important element, is to be Christian and believe in Christ. Then expect good things from God, as his child. It’s Joel Osteen - as I understand him - in a nutshell
The apostle Paul says the root of all evils is the fondness for money. I think I’ll just trust the inspired word.
I think I’ll trust in the truth that God has put before our very eyes. Not all evils are the result of a fondness for money. The person who’s desire for sex consumes him to the point that he goes out and has affair after affair, or even worse yet, goes and rapes someone else is not seeking money. The person who covets his neighbor’s spouse and so seeks to kill said spouse is not after money. A person who is jealous of another because the other receives more attention and therefore hates said person again has nothing to do with money. As I find the Scriptures to be instructive, I do not worship them as the ONLY truth. I worship the Spirit of God inside the heart and mind that allows me to see the truth in all things, whether it be Scripture, the world around me, other writings etc. etc.
I agree entirely, and this (to me) proves that, along with Matthew 25 and James 4, that what a person does with riches, should they find themselves in possession of them, tells the story of their heart’s worship of God or idolatry of self. If riches are received as the result of the gospel, perhaps that tells the story of whether it is really the gospel, or some kind of spiritual Amway where the person at the top of the pyramid receives the most, instead of giving the most, and the people at the bottom carry the weight of the prosperity of the few at the top who are trotted out to give “testimonies” that will encourage the people at the bottom to carry on, feeding a money machine that ought to be pouring the benefits back down to the members in need, those “inglorious” and unseen people who are struggling with burdens that ought to be ministered to out of the abundance.
"Go your way, be warmed and filled, and give so that you will be given unto, but not by me- “God will do it for you, if your faith is great enough”.
It is not what men accomplish, but what they do with their accomplishments, that reveals the motives for their work. “I am He that tries the reins and the hearts”… “every mans work will be tested by fire, because the Day will reveal it, whether it be wood, hay or stubble, gold silver or precious stone…if any man’s work is burned up, he will lose his reward, but he will be saved, but as one passing through the flames.”
In a past life (i.e. past phase of my life), I was an Independent Catholic bishop. And I was invited to a gathering, of independent Catholic bishops and priests. And they were having a couple of services.
And my Holy Fools tradition, was apparent back then. And I kept asking these questions:
Where’s the snakes?
Is anyone bringing the snakes?
And the leader finally said jokingly,
But the bible says this:
Mark 16:18 ►
New International Version
And there are Pentecostal churches, that do have snake handling services. Let this short video demonstrates (also, notice the fire handling):
Randy, Mark 16:9-20 is not in the earliest manuscripts. These words are also in a different style from the rest of Mark. They are believed to have been an addition. However, Mark’s “gospel,” without these verses, is incomplete. An alternative ending exists:
I would probably give the same answer that Metropolitan Kallistos of the Orthodox Church gave when, in a railway station, someone fixed him with a piercing gaze and asked, “Are you saved?” He gives an interesting account of his experience here:
His reply was, “By the grace of God, I am being saved.”
Salvation from sin is a life-long process. No one is yet saved from sin.
But those who ask, “Are you saved?” or “Have you been saved?” usually have in mind, “Have you been saved from hell?” which they believe is brought about when you “accept Christ as your personal Savior” or “trust in the finished work of Christ” or “say the sinner’s prayer,” etc. There are quite a variety of formulae that different ones consider necessary in order to be saved from hell.
However, we might ask: Did the angel that spoke to Joseph tell him to call the child’s name “Jesus” (savior) because He would save his people from hell? Or did he tell him to call the child’s name “Jesus” (savior) because He would save his people from their sins? Clearly, it is the latter. (Matt 1:21)
Being saved from sin takes time, indeed, a life time. But it will eventually be completed. The apostle Paul wrote:
I am persuaded of this, that the One who began a good work in you will continue the process of completion until the day of Jesus Christ.(Philippians 1:6)
I don’t speak for Paidion but** there is a present salvation:**
Eph_2:5 (we also being dead to the offenses and the lusts), vivifies us together in Christ (in grace are you saved!)"
Eph_2:8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God’s approach present,
There is a current "being saved"
1Co_15:2 through which also you are being saved, if you are retaining what I said in bringing the evangel to you, outside and except you believe feignedly."
There is a future salvation:
Rom_5:9 Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood,** we shall be saved **from indignation, through Him."
Rom_5:10 For if, being enemies, we were conciliated to God through the death of His Son, much rather, being conciliated, we shall be saved in His life."
Therefore, I am saved, I am presently being saved and I will be saved.
No, I don’t. To be saved from such without a change of character would lead to a deepening of the evil of their beings.
There is much in the New Testament about the reconciliation of all people to God, but nothing about people being saved from any “postmortem punishment” because any such “punishment” will be administered, not out of vengeance or penalty, but out of God’s love in order to bring about the necessary regeneration of their character and to reconciliation with Himself. One should never desire to be saved from the loving correction that God will provide. He will never give anyone any more discomfort than is absolutely necessary in order bring about their repentance and regeneration.
As Eusebius points out, within scripture salvation is discussed in past, present and future tense. To say “I have been saved” is not incorrect. To say “I am being saved” is not incorrect either. Nor is it to say “I will be saved”.
Where the problem comes is when people over-emphasise one or two of these to the neglect of another. Within evangelical Christianity, it’s common to focus too much on the past tense version - “I have been saved”. To a slightly lesser extent, the future tense is also a part of it - “I will be saved”. What’s missing is the focus on the present tense and I think that largely comes down to two ideas; one being that salvation, as people in this thread have referred to, means to be saved from (eternal) post-mortem punishment, and the second (very much related) being penal substitution - i.e. salvation is simply the legal fiction of us no longer having our sins counted against us because Christ has (supposedly) taken the punishment.
As such, many are willing to focus on the past tense (“my ‘debt’ has been paid because of Jesus’ death”) and the future tense (“I will no longer be punished on the day of judgement because of this”) but not so much on our ongoing salvation. To live a holy life is simply to make certain of our future salvation or to bring others to “believing in Christ’s atonement”. If salvation in the present tense does become a topic of discussion, it’s often to denounce the idea that we’re saved by works.
For what it’s worth, I have no problem, theoretically, with the idea that part of our salvation is being saved from post-mortem punishment. What I take issue with is the notion that it’s the main ‘point’ behind being saved. As the angel says to Mary in Matthew 1 “you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” It’s our sin itself that we need to be saved from, not the punishment for it.
