I love the silent treatment. Let’s me know Christians are here. 
Eusebius, I believe Paul was trying to make the point that we are not saved by any one particular person’s work. For example, Mr. Smith says I gave $500 dollars to the church, what have YOU done? It does not matter whether we give 10 cents, if that is all we can afford, or we make a contribution in some other way. We each serve in the capacity in which we are able, tending to the sheep that we have been given, whether it be 1 sheep or ten. So we should not boast since together we work as a whole. Even so, a person is not truly “saved” until he comes to stand on his own, living in accordance with God.
So, let’s say, Mr. Smith truly, truly believes the evangel Paul brought. But he struggles his whole life trying “to stand on his own” but always fails. He dies surrounded with family. According to you, he is not truly “saved.” What happens to Mr. Smith now? What is his future?
What about this verse?:
Rom 14:4 Who are you who are judging Another’s domestic? To his own Master he is standing or falling. Now he will be made to stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."
So “until he comes to stand on his own” is untrue. What is true is that “he will be made to stand” due to the Lord, not due to himself.
We have already been reconciled by the blood of His cross.
We have been reconciled and now we are being purified, in progressive sanctification, but where the short circuit comes in is this…
That sanctification is not the source of our righteousness, it is the manifestation of “Christ in you the hope of glory”, because, He is a God of being and He is restoring our being through salvation because it is His glory. His glory is who He is as a being and that is what He is sharing with us- the divine nature.
“For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.” 2 Peter 1:4
Works that are not a manifestation of the love of God are worthless in terms of salvation, and good works are manifestations of salvation, not the source of it.
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
We are His workmanship because He saved us by grace through faith. The workmanship is the purpose for which we are created and will manifest as we continue in Him as we began in HIm- by grace though faith
“As you received the Spirit so also walk in it”(Galatians somwhere)
and how did we receive the Spirit?
“Tell me this, did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith”(also Galatians somehwere)
So, we are in Him by Him and we grow as we remain in Him by grace through faith and “faith works by love”.
Now, Today, we have rest, we have entered the finished work. Why? because He is our righteousness. How do we remain at rest? Only as we walk by grace through faith, because “I have died, Christ lives in me…the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God”
And what is the faith of the son of God?
Faith works by love.
No greater love has a man than this- that he lay down his life for his friends.
We have already drank from the water of life and the well is there within us. That is what being saved is all about. We are fighting a war is between who we are now and what we were then. We are seeking to be one with Him, in our being. To abide in the Vine of the divine nature. To love and to shine- hopefully without knowing how much we shine(stay low). Saved into a progressive salvation. “For everyone He foreknew He also predestined to eb conformed to the image of the son of God”.
19Nevertheless, God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from iniquity.” 20A large house contains not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay. Some indeed are for honorable use, but others are for common use.…
A cute little thing I made up this morning:
A little girl told her mother: “Mom, today I learned in Sunday school that Jesus ate and drank with Republicans and sinners.”
Eaglesway said:
That s a bit of a contradiction, 
The Idea of reconciliation, is one of complete redemption, or in other words, God through Christ did everything. The Idea of sanctification, may have little to do with being purified, but more to being one who is realizing what the Christ did for Israel and ultimately all of humanity. 
I see your point, but it is a matter of semantics to me. Reconciliation is about relationship restored. Sanctification(purification) is about restoration of the divine nature throughout ones being(possessing the promised land was a process, though it was already “given”). Redemption is about hope, but not as in “I hope I will be saved”. Rather as in hope as a point yet to be realized, but certainly coming, for were “saved in hope” and “hope maketh not ashamed”. Hope in God’s view(as I see it) is something we have in part, and is coming in fulness, and is fully assured in Him.
So I do not see the word reconciliation as meaning complete redemption, and imo Paul didnt either.
For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. Ro 8
God through Christ did do everything, but everything has not yet been realized, or manifested and the process is ongoing at this point.
Having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge(earnest, downpayment) of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1
NIV …who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession–to the praise of his glory.
And that is to explain what I meant in my statements more than to say “you are mistaken” in your perspective on it.
Yes, salvation is a life-long process of being saved from sin—a process that continues as we coöperate with God who works with us and in us. And that process will some day come to completion.
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
However, I am sure that it is much more comfortable to believe that Christ did everything to put us all in right standing with God, and thus everyone is saved and acceptable to God no matter what one does. He can steal and torture and murder, and still have the same standing with God as the most righteous saint. That belief is ultra-universalism—a most dangerous heresy.
I wouldn’t call that ultra-universalism.
I don’t believe any of that stuff, and I call myself an ultra-universalist.
I would define ultra-universalism as “a form of universalism without post-mortem unpleasantness”.
Paidion said:
I really have nothing to comment to you about this* again*: 
but just to others out there… know that in some views, Christ DID Reconcile/redeem humanity, through his sacrifice for Israel. Christ the Messiah did all that was needed to be done to heal the sin problem between God and man. Now this does not mean that everyone ‘realizes it’, but it is done none the less and it is the true gift of the gospel message, IMHO.
To call this a dangerous heresy is in it self dangerous and very short/closed minded. You, I would say, have no more of a grasp on truth here on this forum than many others. The idea that salvation is a gift from Christ is the most miraculous news. To somehow take that gift and pollute it with the idea of self works is the greatest heresy.
Also, Paul’s letter to the Romans does say we will be judged. Though I am sure we will disagree as to what that means. So the Idea that a murderer or rapist may perhaps have the same standing as the rest of us sinners is not really far fetched.
As Paul talked about righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and said, “That’s enough for now! You may leave. When I find it convenient, I will send for you.” Acts 24:25
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Pet 4:17
The issue(for me) is whether or not one has realized that they are a lawbreaker, and repented of it, and asked forgiveness for that, in its raw essence within the inner man, and been crucified with Christ and submitted to His Lordship. That is reconciliation possessed, as opposed to reconciliation promised. That all will be reconciled, is(to me) prophesy, and assured. That all “have been” reconciled is(to me) an error, because the scriptures bear witness in simple language in a multitude of places that this is not the case.
Everyone will pass through that door of awareness, confession and repentance before they receive the life that is in Christ, regardless of when and how, “As in Adam all died, so also in Christ will all be made alive, each in his own order.”
I suppose the disagreement is whether all “have been made alive” or if all “will be made alive”. In order to be made alive one must die, and be raised from the dead, and the death(imo) is not just physical death, it is “giving up the ghost” in rebellious Adam, in order to raised in “newness of life” in loving Jesus Christ. I believe that has been done “for all”, but is not yet “in all”. There just are too many scriptures that proclaim a day of reckoning to come, and a loss to be suffered by those who refuse the law of love in this life- a loss that is to be avoided, and a loss that will be avoided by those who submit to Him now, and receive the reconciliation offered. That reconciliation is consumated in a change of heart.
If all mankind is betrothed to Him, only those who have received the incorruptible seed of the word of God are married to Him now.
To me, the issue is not so much who is a murderer or who is a rapist. If one violates the law they are a lawbreaker, and all have broken the law. It is just as real a violation of the law(the universal commandments to love God and to love one another) to judge anyone without the consciousness that we ourselves have been lawbreakers- as any other violation. The one who has become aware that of what they are, and has repented, and presented themselves as a footstool for His feet, is righteous, “For if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whosoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy. Prov 28:13
Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But [d]because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
Hi Paidion,
Just as God dealt with the Corinthians while they were alive, for eating and drinking unworthily where some were put to repose and may of them were sick. God was judging them so they would not be condemned with the world
“For he who is eating and drinking unworthily is eating and drinking judgment to himself, not discriminating the body of the Lord. Therefore many among you are infirm and ailing, and a considerable number are reposing. For if we adjudicated ourselves, we would not be judged. Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.” (1Co 11:29-32)
So if one does a crime such as you mention above, either the law enforcement or God will deal with them or both. Christ did not die to save us from needful, loving correction. He died to save us from what we got from Adam.
I found the question of whether salvation is a one time event or a process - on these Yahoo sites:
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090703074124AAfsiPe
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100618224227AAI2IsO
Since these are secular sites, they don’t take a theologlical stance. It’s interesting that there are Protestant churches, that also look at salvation as a process.
One could argue both positions from scripture. Let me just quote the best answers - from each Yahoo thread:
Perhaps one could also say…
So salvation has a past, a present, and a future aspect. I “was saved”; I “am saved”; I am “being saved”; and I “will be saved” if I continue in the faith and endure to the end…and eventually all will be saved(gr. sozo…healed, delivered, restored)
Not to start an argument here but . . . I would say concerning what you stated here: " I “will be saved” if I continue in the faith and endure to the end," is that I will be saved from falling away into harmful things. I will be saved from making shipwreck as to the faith. I will be saved from falling out of a reconciled relationship with our Father. But there is no way I will lose my absolute salvation to eonian life since it is gratuitously given (unearned).
Hi HFPZ, I am curious though what they actually mean “I will be saved if I continue in the faith and endure to the end”? Do they mean it is all up to them to save themselves? Do they mean if they don’t endure to the end that they will lose out on life in the coming eons/ages? Do they mean if they don’t endure to the end they will go to hell eternally? You see, they really need to tell us what they actually mean by this.
You are right, Eusebius. Unfortunately, nobody called them out, on the Yahoo forums or threads - regarding this.
From what I understand, the essence of God/word/Spirit of God is at the core of every human being that is born into this world. This is a gift of God, our Creator. We try to blame sin on Satan, society, Adam or whoever else we can come up with as long as it is not ourselves. But the fact of the matter is that sin did come through one man, and that one man is you, yourself. Original sin started at the point when you disobeyed the word that is inside of you, and it ends when you return and walk in the ways according to God. When each of begins to operate in the righteous ways of our Maker, our families, communities and the societies in which we live will change.
Biblical eschatology left in its historical context explains all this… those who remained faithful to Jesus’ warnings would be duly saved from the forthcoming ravages of the Roman-Jewish wars of AD66-70, as per…
Davo, do the following words of the apostle Paul apply to 70 A.D.? In fact, are they relevant to 70 A.D. and the destruction of Jerusalem in any sense?
*For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well‑doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil … but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good … For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)*