What do we do when Jesus teaches us specific morality vs. just “seek the kingdom”? Your argument is rather faint. Much of what you deal with is from the OT. Do you see the OT as binding on NT believers?
I take the NT command to “maintain the unity of faith in the bond of peace” very seriously. I try to mind my own business and refrain from judging another man’s servant. It’s not my job to be Jesus’ earthly mouthpiece. I have no authority over my fellows, nor any profound moral insight. If, like the Pharisees of old, I busy myself telling others how to live, I will almost certainly do more harm than good. It’s far better to lead people to Christ and let him speak for himself.
But in effect you are teaching a morality. You are assessing the claims of Kelly. There is plenty more about “judging” that the NT has to say. In fact, we are to judge matters: “Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!”
Who in their right mind would dare to discern good from evil without God by their side? Eve in all her new-born perfection made an independent moral choice and look how it ended. If only she had said, “Mr Snake, it’s been very nice talking to you, but I think I’ll wait until tomorrow before making my decision. The Lord God walks with us in the cool of the evening, you see. He knows all things and does all things well. I’ll mention our little conversation to him.”
Our prayer as Christians ought to be, “Know my heart. Test my thoughts. See if there be any wickedness in ME, and lead me in the way everlasting.” However, what we usually do is judge and condemn the “wickedness” in others. Because we fear and hate their sins, and because it distracts attention away from our own hearts, we then spend our time and energy gathering legal, cultural and emotional power to force others to conform to our own image. Achieving this, we believe ourselves to be righteous.
Here’s the “verse for the day” from Bible Gateway.
“And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.” Philippians 1:9-10
I think our “bond of peace” should be in in Biblical truth. I’m totally into minding my own business but, this is a forum which, I assume is here for people to share ideas, some of which may differ. Having a theological opinion on the matter and sharing it on this thread does not fall under the “minding your own business” category, in my opinion. If it does, we should shut down any sharing of ideas, anywhere.
Ah yes, “judging another man’s servant”. This is why everyone is in a tither. No one is judging another man’s servant on this thread. Some “feel” judged. That is different. Those of us who believe the Scriptures do not support this behavior and, even call it sin, are being accused falsely, of being judgmental. Not true! We are simply disagreeing with those who hold that God condones this behavior. Calling me (I mean those who don’t “mind their own business”) judgmental, a pharisee and a busy body who causes more harm than good is, in my opinion, a very aggressive, hurtful and harsh judgment that has no basis in truth. It is also very one sided and hypocritical. Can we discuss Gay Rights (Theologically) on this forum/thread? Does that still hold true for those who believe it to be sin? Do those who believe God calls it sin have to shut up and be silent because we won’t be controlled by another persons feelings or opinions? Talking about truth does not mean someone is judgmental. For the record, I don’t have ill feelings toward anyone on either side of this issue. I simply disagree and have sometimes written out of mouth dropping shock to what was said. Also, I don’t hold anything against anyone. Like this post, Allan. I know you don’t like what I’m saying or necessarily agree with my reading of Scripture but, this post was an attack on the character (including my own) of those who you feel aren’t speaking the way you want them to. No hard feelings. Let’s be honest with each other. I could be accepted and loved in a lot of groups of people that don’t give a darn about my soul or my relationship with God. If we are going to discuss this, let’s be honest in our look at the Scriptures and lay off the name calling, even if we disagree. Agreed? 
Craig,
That is not my opinion, it is Scripture and because it is, I stand by it. My post is quoted Scripture and I looked the Greek word up on the computer. I’m not fluent in Koine Greek so, I have to rely on others for that. Is the Scripture I quoted wrong? Or the Greek word in the Young’s literal translation wrong? Thanks for the input.
Kelly
I don’t think it’s possible to formulate a coherent, Biblical, sexual ethic. It’s not for want of trying. The church is divided over contraception, abortion, divorce and remarriage, gender roles, gender changes, and homosexuality. I cannot see clearly where the universal church sees fog.
I agree.
I agree.
Something that would be a sin for one person might not be a sin for another. Each of us must seek God’s mind on the matter. What he says to you may well be different to what he says to me. One size does not fit all. Each of us is spiritually sick in different ways, and need different medicines.
I was not thinking of you when I wrote that, but of myself. In my younger years I was very clear about what was right and wrong, and very happy to let people know. I was no different to a Pharisee. I was ignorant, arrogant and hypocritical, rushing in where angels feared to tread. Nowadays, I am much less certain of myself, and much more interested in getting people to seek God for themselves.
In the abstract, Yes. In my experience, that’s very difficult to do.
That seems to me to be the right spirit in which to engage these difficult questions.
It was never my intent to call you names or attack your character. My reasoning is simple enough.
- I cannot find a consistent, coherent sexual ethic in the BIble, nor can the church as a whole.
- I am not the Great Physician of souls, nor is the Bible. The letter kills. Law brings death.
- The best thing I can do is lead people to the living Christ and see love kindle in their hearts. Their love for him, and his love for them, will cover a multitude of sins. Inexorable as the tide, this love will grow and grow until it nullifies and destroys everything that keeps them apart.
Kind regards
Allan S
Sin is sin. It is God’s perfection, that is Torah. Anything less is sin. He has written His “law” upon our hearts and minds and when we go against it, we know we have sinned. We each may struggle with different sins but, His Torah is truth. Our sickness is sin (going against His Torah). We are all sick and need the same medicine, Him. He brings the medicine of repentance, forgiveness, healing and aionian life.
There is a clear difference between Torah and Pharisaic Talmud. Torah is Yehovah’s revealed image. Talmud is the rules and regulations that many times adds to or takes away from the Torah which, was prohibited in the Torah and brought with it a curse. Modern religion is the same thing, they teach that we don’t have to follow God’s laws but, they make up their own rules that “their” people must live by or be excommunicated or ostracized. Without Torah, we are left spinning out trying to figure out what the heck to do and what is right to do. God didn’t leave us here to spin out. He showed us the way, Yeshua, who is the embodiment of Torah. Yeshua taught us to teach Torah. Matt 5 “Do not think that I came to add to or take away from the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to add to or take away but, to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will by any means pass from the Law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” I am making no judgments on another here, just trying to get across the importance of continuing in what God says is right to do. The churches have chiseled God’s people out of His blessings by teaching them to not keep and do what is right according to God. Just as they have taught eternal torment when that is not what God says in the written word.
Seeking God for themselves is a great idea but, what direction do you point them? There are many so called gods.
In regards to your above numbered statements;
- I do not regard christian ethics as a valid moral compass. It is too unreliable. Nor, do I regard the church as a whole as a valid moral compass, for the same reason. We must go back to the revelation we have (God’s written Word) to establish a moral compass.
- Yehovah is the Great Physician. He has revealed Himself and given us what OBJECTIVE understanding we do have, in the Bible. The law (TORAH) of Yehovah is perfect, we also were created perfect. Torah still is perfect we are not. The only reason the law brings death is because WE sin. God does not change, He is the same through all our time. We changed and that change (sin) brought death.
- How can you lead people to the living Christ? From where do you conjure an objective understanding of this Christ? The thing that keeps “them” and Christ apart is their sin, ignorance or unwillingness to follow in His truth. How can you lead them there without the objective Torah? If there is no objective law, there is no need for repentance and therefore, no need of a savior. So, why lead them at all? At the end of all things, will we truly call this love?
Perhaps we can start a thread on sexual ethics. However, one thing I notice in your comments on sexual ethics is, the exemption of sodomy within them. Though some men had many wives, they did not have sodomite relations. Though Hosea married a prostitute, she was not a man. Sodomy is exchanging the natural use of the body for the unnatural use. It was an abomination to Yehovah. This is an important issue because either, there is no sin and therefore no need of a savior, or there is sin and a need for a savior who can cleanse us of those sins. If we teach the former, there is no hope for cleansing or healing for any of us. The later may bring a fierce pain temporarily but, ultimately, brings true and permanent healing. Not just in the area of sodomite sin but, all sin.
Very kind regards to you, Allan.
Kelly
@Kelly S - You have done an excellent job in this discussion. You have held to the truth of the scripture in a kind, loving, and straightforward way.
@Everyone - Instead of saying homosexuality is okay, or adultery, stealing, or whatever, why not just call it a sin? If we are in Christ, why do we need our own righteousness when we have Jesus’ righteousness given to us as a gift? (Paul even called it a free gift - just in case we missed the point.)
We all have weakness, and in that weakness Christ is made strong. Our sins have consequences, either in this life or the next, but thanks be to God that the next life, and our entry into it, is not dependent on our ability to follow the moral code of God (which was shown to us in order that we might see our weakness and cry out for a Savior).
We can justify “homosexuality” from the bible, that’s for sure. We can justify anything with the bible. But when we do so, who and what are we trying to protect? Ourselves perhaps? Our conscience? Our own righteousness, apart from Christ? If we make all things okay (well, not all things, just those sins that afflict “me”), then what’s the point of Jesus’ death? He died and rose for people who don’t need forgiveness or life.
His grace is sufficient for us.
Hi Kelly
You wrote:
I was surprised by this statement. Are you sure this is what you believe and that your statement is complete?
Blessings
Hello Pilgrim,
I doubt any statement of mine is totally complete. He has shown us what is right and wrong to Him. He has given us a perfect sacrifice which is also an important aspect. My point is, if we can’t trust God’s Word for truth and a path to follow, there is no way to know Him objectively and, it leaves everyone in a lurch just doing what’s seems right in our own eyes, not what is right in His eyes. The alternatives are much more unreliable. If we are all traveling the “narrow path” as His Word says, we should encourage each other in it. Help each other to the destination not throw each other off the path by denying it’s existence. I do not mean to be hurtful to anyone but, coming out of the brand of paganism I have come out of, speaking truth is love, it is healing and deliverance. May all good come to us all on this forum and may we accept it from His loving hand.
Peace to you!
My apologies to Buddy. I had not read your/his post before I asked my question of Kelly.
I don’t understand you. I am a sinner. We are all sinners.
If you are wanting an answer to the question ‘why not call homosexuality a sin’, how about:
“Because the Bible doesn’t.” -is that sort of answer you are looking for?
or “Because Jesus doesn’t” - is that any better?
Hi Kelly
Thank you for your response. You seem to speak from the heart and I appreciate that. I would like to discuss this further but it is gone midnight here so, until tomorrow, I bid you God’s peace.
Buddyb4, why are you qualifying your relationship as loving and monogamous? Your sarcasm doesn’t escape me, but you use it as though you think I (or anyone who calls a sin a sin) have something to throw at you - or at least, that’s how it seems to me. My point is this: If you deny it as a sin, you have no need of Christ. If you agree with the law (and pardon the pun, but the greek for “agree” or “confess” is “homologeo” - to say the same), then you know your need for Christ. You can only feel frustrated in this because of two things: 1) a demand of righteousness, apart from Christ, in behavior, or 2) your conscience continues to speak to you, even though you willfully and forcefully deny it.
You speak as if from the world.
I commit adultery in my mind at least twice a week. That secretary at the office keeps wearing low-cut blouses, and I confess, her boobs are really beautiful - at least the part I can see. So, while all the gays may have left, I’m still here - in my weakness. I would never identify myself as an Adulterer though - and, I’d never join a Fellowship of Adulterers, walking in our adultery, (and being happy in it). And, I’d never try to convince you that adultery is okay, scripturally, legally – first and foremost because the plain reading of scripture says otherwise, and secondly, because that would be to justify the old, dead man.
Buddyb4, you miss the importance of “Christ in you, our hope of Glory”. If you claim Christ, then rest in Him, knowing His righteousness is sufficient. You have a weakness - I get that. We all do. There is a consequence for you for your weakness and a consequence for me for my weakness. Why is that so hard for you? Haven’t you died in Christ?
Ah. but he has. Is the risen Christ a homosexual? If you are in Him, then you have his righteousness.
okay
likewise.
Greetings Buddy,
I am sorry for your pain. I want you to know that my intention in this post was to hold up God’s Word. It was not to make you feel like a confession was being wrenched out of you. I’m sure Bad Avocado was not trying to do that either. I understand that we are all in different places. No doubt, you have not had to deal with the sins I have, or the temptations I do. Your sin does not make me love you less. I would hope you would be the same toward me in my sins. I had rather hoped that the truth of His Word would give you hope. How interesting that I have a cousin living your exact story. I love him very much and I like the man he lives with. I see all his love and the good inside him and because he was one of the two cousins I was closest with, he knows I love him. He knows I think his lifestyle is sin and he knows I mean no ill toward him, only good because I love him. If you were my cousin, that knew me and I you, this conversation would not have been so heart wrenching I’m sure. But, the truth is we are all God’s children so, we are related and I hope our relationship can flourish in Him. I know this theological conversation was harder for you than me in a lot of ways and that does not bring me pleasure but, my desire for you and all God’s children is for all goodness and blessing to be theirs. I don’t know how good and blessing can come outside of His Word and sometimes that is hard. But, it is always good.
Blessed is the man whom Yehovah instructs out of His Torah. (Psm 94)
May you be blessed in all good things, Buddy!
Peace!
Thank you Pilgrim,
I am writing honestly from my soul.
May you rest well and awake refreshed.
I don’t understand you either pilgrim. We are all sinners who can’t label sin as sin?
Why not?
I’m dead to sin, what do I have to fear by calling it sin. My sin or your sin… doesn’t matter. Regarding my own, I’ve died to it. It certainly can’t kill me any more.
The John MacArthur’s of the Church may tell you that they have died to sin, and then tell you to stop sinning. If we don’t learn to appropriate the righteousness of Christ apart from works (and apart from the John MacArthurs of the world), we will only live in frustration - trying to get our dead corpses to look and smell pretty - instead of the rotten, stinking dead things they are.
But, if we let the old man die, then sin (and John MacArthur) can’t hurt us.
Only by bending it and ignoring parts of it. The old man needs to bend it. The old man insists on being righteous in his flesh, apart from Christ. The old man can’t handle the accusation (whether from the law or the conscience), so he needs to make an excuse:
It’s not my fault. Everyone else is doing it. It’s not wrong. It’s okay. I was born this way. Who are you to tell me anything? But I’m so happy. Gollum. Gollum
It’s the “old man” that picks up stones for the woman caught in adultery. Since the old man ignores his own dead heart (justifying his own behavior) he wants to throw stones at everyone else. Jesus doesn’t throw stones! Jesus forgives. And Jesus says, “Go and sin no more”. He didn’t fail to call a spade a spade - yet he forgives!
I know. Crazy, ain’t it?
It’s dangerous too. Nothing kindles wrath from man so easily as to tell him he’s wrong. Jesus did that to the Pharisees and ended up on a Cross. God tells us that we’re wrong. So we say, like the Jews, “kill him” - and like Nietzche, we declare “God is Dead”. This is a hell of a lot easier than changing our mind and agreeing with God - saying the same thing He says.
But God needs to show us our thirst (depravity) in order to lead us to water (life in Christ).
Why not say the same thing God says about our own sins and also say the same thing Christ says about his forgiveness and the gift of life and righteousness (which comes from his resurrection, not the cross)?
In previous discussions I presented the argument for the traditional interpretation of homosexuality, which I continue to think has more exegetical coherence that modern critics recognize. Yet most Biblical moralilty makes sense to me in terms of widely recognized conceptions of what love means and does. And I must honestly confess that I cannot fathom why my expression of marital heterosexuality logically need be morally superior to a homosexual fidelity. My honest sense is that my tradition has commonly fostered an unloving approach to homosexuals which has also encouraged their dishonesty about themselves. I’d hate that gracious presentations of the traditional interpretation would prompt us to lose them.
On the current Christianity Today web page, its’ editor Mark Galli, unabashedly says Jesus promoted breaking the Torah… and he received some highly critical responses. Within current discussions on diversity of evangical interpretations and the hermaneutical clarity of Scripture, I seem to sense Jesus’ handling of Torah and the Hebrew Scriptures is more complicated and debateable than Kelly may, but I love her devotion to faithfully holding to God’s Word as she understands it. And I find Kelly is quite right that it is appropriate on this an evangelical forum, to avoid evaluations of others’ character and motivation, and as she has, graciously focus debate on one’s understanding of the Bible, and each of our understandings of how we may differently seek to be faithful to its’ pivotal role in our faith.
I would hate for anyone to leave the forum for any reason. Some may feel hurt because we are discussing sodomy. My personal hurt came from my “feelings” that others were striking out at me because of their feelings. I think both “feelings” at different times, trumped our need to instead seek Scripture. I felt persecuted for just trying to state Scripture. My struggle is with the emotional manipulation/control tactics. I grew up with a mom casting spells and manipulating things in the spirit via demons. Because of the authority she had over me and my desire to be loved by her, it created in me a real hurt and anger toward that kind of behavior. I know people may not do that intentionally and I try to maintain a distance between the two (the person and the behavior) but, it still does affect me at a deep level. I’m not sure if I still need healing there or if Yehovah has left that open as a door of discernment.
I’m not real well versed in what you are talking about above. I was not raised in church and my experience with it has (in what I did learn) really turned me away from her interpretations and traditions. I know this may be offensive but, to make my point, it made me sick that christians kept the same pagan holy days that I did growing up which, was for the worship of ancient deities/demons. That was a little weird for me. I’m not well read when it comes to modern critics either which unfortunately, has left me a little embarrassed in my lack of understanding of what you have said above (sorry). My shift to leaving behind eternal torment was based wholly on my further studies after reading Julie’s book. I already had gleaned from Scriptures that God is just and that does not leave room for all people who didn’t “accept Him as Savior” being tormented in an unending state. All that was left was to spend some time in the Greek and comparing Scriptures. Could you explain what you mean by, “Yet most Biblical moralilty makes sense to me in terms of widely recognized conceptions of what love means and does.” I’m sorry, my faith is very untraditional and my understanding of love is to not sin against God or our neighbor then, to go “the extra mile” to help restore our neighbor when I have that oppurtunity. My understanding is, Torah tells us what love “is”, Jesus showed what love “does” by keeping Torah perfectly in the flesh. Had He not, He would not have been a perfect sacrifice and we would still be in our sin. Also, He gave us an example, that we should walk like He did (doing Torah). I am simple in my thinking. I think, God says it and it is good to do.
I do not doubt that the same feelings accompany both heterosexual and homosexual relationships. My thoughts, and what I thought we were discussing on this particular thread was, what God says about it and, is it right to Him. I was raised with the idea that homosexuality was right, that sexual abuse was ok, that witchcraft was normal. I don’t have a background that fosters any judgment toward anyone really. I don’t think anyone is being uncaring toward those in that sin, only just saying, according to the God that was and is and will be, it is sin. If we can’t admit that there are laws at work in the universe that are higher than we are and, realize that we have, at least some personal responsibility to adhere to them, we are saddest of all creatures. My life experience testifies that God have given us discernible, objective, saving, life changing truth in the Scriptures. And, I believe He loves others just as much.
It would be fun to discuss this idea of Jesus breaking Torah if, others are interested. Can we start a thread for that, Bob? I’m not up on the current debates, which would be interesting to hear and discuss.
Thank you, Bob! Peace and joy to you in abundance!