The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Gehenna is Hades

Bob… can you be a little more judicious when you quote me. This above has me quoting you to which you then respond as per argument… BUT I didn’t quote you as you are attributing me as doing; this continues to be a little frustrating.

Well for mine, I’d qualify your thoughts just slightly, as per… natural consequences to natural actions are a natural given, no matter the age or scenario or context. But for Israel of the OC era alone there was a significant difference to said actions / consequences relative to their being obedient to their divine calling, such as was unique to them. That past reality is best reflected in all those texts I provided earlier which are worth repeating…

Thus certain consequences for certain actions which were RELATIVE TO Israel’s unique priestly call and function in the service of God played out to where in the given moment it may have been harsh and yet its end was always for their betterment. Interestingly Peter notes that judgment starts at the house of God… which sheds light on your partial quote re: sowing and reaping — its immediate prelude reads… “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked…” — Paul is speaking to believers :open_mouth:

I’m a bit unclear. In concluding that consequences were “different” for Israel’s era, and that the Christ event “did not stop the likely consequences of their errant actions,” are you implying that Christ’s work now does stop “the likely consequences of the errant actions” of God’s people, or that God was harsher upon his people’s disobedience under the OC than he now is in the new covenant era?

Does your filling out of Peter’s warning to believers that God won’t be mocked when disciples of Jesus sow poorly suggest that we who believe should be wary of the consequences that God will administer to our disobedience just as Israel should have been of theirs?

I don’t really think so, literally. Methinks both Paul (and Peter) in their eschatological context probably said those things with a raised eyebrow, i.e., more an admonition not to trifle with their faith whereas to fall away as was the want of some, of which the writer on Hebrews also warns would lead… to perdition.

The judgment of that age was an eschatological judgment relative to Israel of the OC… the NC church was for the most part coming out of the old covenant body where many Jews were in fact joining the church. Of course for gentiles that wasn’t so much the issue BUT a related and very real one was, where the Judaisers were demanding and pressuring unto law observance to be saved… or as some word it today, “to be true Christians” — such was an anathema then and nothing has changed on that score.

The unbelievably amazing thing about God’s reconciliation of humanity is that He… “no longer imputes their trespasses to them” — go figure? That of course is on the vertical axis of God toward man… He does however expect believers i.e., those who understand His graciousness, to practice on the horizontal axis of man toward man said forgiveness where possible and likewise not practice wrongdoing towards others.

Given OC Israel’s specific history and calling to the outworking to completion of the reconciliation I’d say pretty much so… to whom much was given much was required — which might also put into historical context the NT eschatological warnings relative to the same, i.e., the outworking to completion of the reconciliation that was taking place in Christ and His firstfruit saints ON BEHALF OF Israel and thereby humanity.

I didn’t understand how you went on to explain your “no” response. By assuming Paul’s “eyebrows are raised,” do you mean that Paul was not giving a sober warning that God’s people all face the principle that we will tend to harshly reap what we sow?

How is your response inconsistent with a “No” answer, that “the likely consequences of errant actions of God’s people” does continue to operate?

I’m not following your assumptions. Are you implying that less has been given to us in the new covenant era, so that God expects less of us now, and thus is not so harsh?

In what sense was life ‘harsher’ for them, than it is now?

Yes I tell you that you continue to be at odds with scripture, with what God and Jesus say. You continue to promote that the scriptures are written to us and as far as I am concerned, if you want to continue in such belief (even though you have been shown a different way) more power to ya Don.

BTW, Good luck and be safe.

I do believe that God reconciled the world to himself through Christ. But we are urged to “Be reconciled” or as the NIV Words it “come back to God” This could very well mean a coming back to God as a Covenant people [ie] Israel, or a coming back of the whole of mankind since the fall of Adam [ie] those outside of Gods covenant people/Gentiles. In either of the cases some form of repentance on the recipients behalf is needed. Unfortunately Most of Israel and most of mankind in General have failed in the act/s of repenting and coming back to God.

Rightly or wrongly, the understanding I get from Gods word, is that he chose Israel
as a people/nation to bring forth his blessings not only for them, but also blessings that through them would reach [eventually] to the ends of the earth.The everlasting beginnings of this, was to come from the established messianic kingdom under Gods rule through Christ and his chosen covenant people, culminating to the eventual and permanent blessing to [all] mankind. Their failure not only starved them of Gods blessings, but also to the rest of mankind. Although this plan suffered a great collapse [caused on mans behalf] this was only to be in part. God still is going to achieve his plan, and that process started at his sons resurrection, which now involves both Jew and gentile together under a n/c forming a spiritual Israel, through which Gods greater purpose will be served again hear on earth. Amongst this working out God through Christ is seeking out a kingdom of priests who will serve with his son, [ie] many are called but few are chosen. I believe it is at Christ’s second coming that the beginnings of this kingdom will again be implemented here on earth, scripture tells us the kingdom will start small but will eventually fill the whole earth. After the second resurrection, it would seem many Will find themselves outside of this new but small beginnings, also those who Christ for told would be there Matt 8:12. This is were I personally believe all those outside the kingdom, who have failed to reconcile themselves to God by way of repentance, Will be in a state of deep regret and torment, it is here outside metaphorically in Gehenna Fire such rebellious attitudes will be dealt with, until the point has been reached that [all] has been reconciled back to God via the path of reconciliation he provided through his son.I don’t see this punishment like God is thrashing his subjects, it’s more they are outside of Gods presence and blessings a place of of gloom, both physically and spiritually were they will be brought to the realisation, life outside of Gods given blessings is a life not worth having. I believe this realisation will bring them into alignment with Gods ways, as and when this is achieved I believe this is how the kingdom will spread,… along with its blessings to [all] Mankind and fill the whole earth.

My point being, I do believe God has reconciled [all] mankind to himself through Christ, but to share in his future kingdom blessings, one needs to align their heart and mind back to God by way of repentance Rom 2:12 + 2 Corinth 7:10, Until that time such ones can’t enter the kingdom.[ie] 1 Corinth 6:9-10 + Rev 21:7. I just see the process and it’s out workings differently, not only to your view but that of many others also, who do believe along similar lines to me.

Sooooo…I have quoted all the NT passages that contain the word “Gehenna.”
In many of them, Jesus clearly warned people, lest they be cast into that Gehenna which Jesus described as “fiery.”

I have asked you whether or not these words of Jesus teach a painful consequence for wrongdoing in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, and as usual you avoid the issue and turn again to attack me unjustly, saying that I “continue to be at odds with scripture, with what God and Jesus say,” whereas I quoted exactly what Jesus said, and you ignore the import of His words!

I asked you to first, "Tell me truly whether or not most of them teach a painful consequence for wrongdoing in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire. Then tell me whether of not I “refuse to acknowledge the actual text of scripture.”

But you said nothing about my first request. You just repeated your false accusation.

I think you missed the elephant in the room with your “that we” — reading yourself into the text, and by doing so missed what I noted that… “Paul in his eschatological context probably said those things”, i.e., the OC reality was being wound up in that age and thus the judgment associated with it; thus ‘God is not mocked’ as in… He has the last word. Sowing into the fleshly works of self-righteousness = corruption, whereas sowing in the spirit of Christ-righteousness = fullness of life.

Errant actions towards others (horizontal) by the very nature of things invite the likely prospect of at least reaction or at worst retaliation… that’s a given. But God’s people are encouraged by virtue of being God’s people to do rightly by all and sundry, i.e., to non-believers, and also especially… “to those of the household of faith” (vss. 9-10).

Your “given to us” says a lot more then you realise. THE BENEFITS of fullness have indeed been given to the world due to the faithfulness of Christ and His firstfruit saints WHO PAID THE PRICE for what humanity NOW has, i.e., reconciliation with God.

Those saints of the transitional period AD30—70 (what I would call the true intertestamental period) had an awful lot required of them to where they needed to be faithful to the end (Mt 24:13) in their call in Christ and NOT as some were doing and falling away from the faith into or back to the law-righteousness of OC existence… something that was on the cusp of cessation (Heb 8:13).

Given you don’t accept the Scriptures various accounts of God’s judgments befalling Israel of the OC era as being either credible or reliable I’m not sure I can sufficiently answer that one??

THE BENEFITS of fullness have indeed been given…

Bob’s response: Thanks, that appears a “No”, that even more has been given to us in the new covenant reconciliation & fullness that Jesus’ faithfulness has given the world. But if your principle is that more is required from those given much, couldn’t God’s expectations of new covenant believers be greater?

Not sure Bob, my focus has been the biblical context… but what does your experience tell you of today?

Thanks, that appears a clear “Yes,” that we in the new covenant age do not face this principle (of “that age”) that warns of reaping what we sow.

Maybe Paul presents a principle that expired in their harsh day, but my impression is that he declares a sober principle to Galatia’s Greek Christians that’s true throughout history.

My perception is (1) that the principle remains valid that greater responsibility is attached to being given much. (2) that in Christ we have in fact been given a much greater fullness in our grasp of God’s grace and ways. And (3) that the expectation that the church inheriting these greater promises is expected to be a greater light to the world is correct. And (4) That Christendom’s sheer failures to obediently reflect the gracious way of Christ is incurring huge judgment in it’s scandals, materialism, and daunting disintegration and exile in most quarters of our Western world, where thoughtful people increasingly despise us and our failure to live out the admired values of Jesus.

I could point beyond the historic tendencies of God’s new covenant people toward anti-Semitism and alliance with violence and political military might, and offend many here by pointing to this era’s fond alliance in America with the meanness of a bitter right-wing demagogue. But while an Australian might be sympathetic, I presume you think current realities differ altogether from the unique storyline of God’s violent judgments on the old covenant world.

Bob, how do you perceive or maybe experience God judges you in the new covenant… is it more harsh than what appears, in the scriptures, as per His dealings of Israel under the OC?

Davo, thanks, my answer above touches on your good question. I’d like to think Jesus’ new covenant brought us a softer world where God’s judgment is not experienced so harshly. But my sense is that the experiences of God’s dealing as we reap what we sow in the present age and are “turned over” to our sin continues to be often quite harsh. So I’m not sure the history of the church era has contained conspicuously less harsh griefs and grievous discipline than the unhappy world before Christ.

For me personally, my experience of how I perceive God’s wrath working has often been painfully profound. My buying into false traditional understandings of the new covenant led to horrific panic attacks, needing to retire at 50, huge existential pain over my grasp of God’s calling and ways, much rejection by those I served, etc, etc.

Sure the harsh pain in my life may not be as dramatic as facing drowning in the flood or being hit by a lightening bolt, have a prophet use a bear to maul me, etc, but I’m not sure those pictures of God’s harshness should be understood as the normative regular experience of God’s harshness during Israel’s old covenant era. Or that after Christ most people essentially experience less of God’s wrath and more happiness than they did before he came. That may sound heretical, but I’ve also experienced the deep joy and peace to which David testifies during the old covenant, and largely find God’s ways a profound blessing, even if it’s taken going through much judgment.


(Had to look it up:

A demagogue or rabble-rouser is a leader who gains popularity in a democracy by exploiting emotions, prejudice, and ignorance to arouse an audience, whipping up the passions of the crowd and shutting down reasoned deliberation. Demagogues overturn established norms of political conduct, or promise or threaten to do so.

Al Sharpton, Farrakhan, Bernie Sanders, Fauxcahontas, any Democrat leaders, for example.)
Way off topic, I’ll leave now…

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Amen, sorry you had to endure such nonsense. Try not to make the same mistake twice.

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[quote=“Paidion, post:72, topic:14408”]
Sooooo…I have quoted all the NT passages that contain the word “Gehenna.”
In many of them, Jesus clearly warned people, lest they be cast into that Gehenna which Jesus described as “fiery.”

Yep you have

[quote=“Paidion, post:72, topic:14408”]
I have asked you whether or not these words of Jesus teach a painful consequence for wrongdoing in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire,

No they don’t to folks here in 2020.

No, I simply pointed out the facts. Jesus was talking to the people there and then… Not to us.

This context has nothing to do with us here and now, though I realize you want it to be. Context is everything. Jesus talked to the people He talked to. Plain and simple. Your wanton hope for people through the ages to think that Jesus was talking to unending generations is a simple pipe dream. You can believe it all you want, and I personally have no problem with it but don’t wave a finger at others and say ‘that is the way it is’ Don, you surely know better.

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Please see related discussions in marcthedawn’s “Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, & the Abyss: Distinct but Related Compartments,” and in my “The Temple, the Antichrist, and the Structure of Revelation.”

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