The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Gehenna?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#29

Well Paul says…

‘By grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God’ - so even the faith isn’t of the one being saved but the one doing the saving surely?

Also the parable of the lost sheep pretty much sums it up for me - the ninety and nine ‘saved ones’ are left and the lost one found and hoisted onto the shepherd’s shoulders and taken home. The sheep is probably so battered and weary of its experiences that it gives up struggling to be free and allows the shepherd to pick it up.

(It’s nice as an agnostic to join the game of ‘well this Bible passage says…x yes but that Bible passage says…y’ :smiley: when we all know it’s the overall picture that counts not so-called proof-verses).

Anyway - Born Again do you have any knowledge of the prophetic role of Israels 3 feast days (passover, pentecost and tabernacles)? Or the harvests they coincided with - barley, wheat and grape (barley yields first with only the gentle winnowing of the wind (the overcomers raised in the first ressurrection), wheat needs to be threshed (Christians raised in the general ressurrection and saved so as by fire) and grapes that need treading under foot to produce their bounty (sound familiar?).

So we have 3 harvests/feasts that prophecy of 3 events… here’s Paul again…

Parentheses are my comments.

‘But each in his own order - First christ the firstfruits (possibly not Jesus himself as he had already been raised when this was written - but could just as well mean the annointed firstfruits, the overcomers or the Barley harvest of sons), **then those that are Christ’s at his coming **(the rest of the Christians who never made it to be overcomers, corresponding to the Wheat harvest). **Then the end **(the 3rd and last harvest of grapes that need crushing)’ It’s after the 3rd and final set that Paul goes on to describe rebels being put under Jesus’s feet (just like grapes). There seems no point in using the term each in his own order (or squadron as it can be translated) for just jesus and then all Christians. It makes far more sense in the light of the prophetic feasts of Israel.

Also remember during the Old Testament if the firstfruits were accepted then the entire harvest was acceptable to God; so what does that say about Jesus’s sacrifice as a perfect firstfruit (he died at the time of the Wave Sheaf offering at passover).

I’ll stop there except to ask one more question - do you know anything of the law of Jubilee (which is abundantly described in the Bible)?

#30

Aaron.

Nowhere in those scriptures does it teach that man can come to repentance and faith in Jesus after they died in their sins an unbeliever.

Hebrews 9:27" it is appointed man to die once and after this comes judgment." You are judged as soon as your heart stops beating. How? if you are in Christ’s righteousness by faith you are covered by his precious blood and you go to be with the Lord in Heaven or if your found to be not in Christ’s righteousness… but in your own self-righteousness( dirty rags) not covered in his precious blood…you go to Hades and await final judgment to the lake of fire.( Rev 20:11-15)

#31

Since you don’t understand what it is we believe, much of what you said has no relevancy. A fallacy is a logical inconsistency, and so how about you tell us all how the lake of fire is logically inconsistent to a purification process for unbelievers? If you cannot find one, then it is not a fallacy.

Isaiah 45:21-24
Declare what is to be, present it—let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD ? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.
"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

They will say of me, ‘In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.’ "All who have raged against him will come to him and be ashamed.

Romans 14:9-12
For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

For it is written,“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”

So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

Philippians 2:9-12
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,and that EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Any other questions you have?

#32

Hi Sven,
I don’t buy that. I don’t think the lake of fire is a literal physical place; I believe it to be metaphorical. Of course, I could be wrong. :smiley:

Sonia

#33

The problem is understanding the difference between Gehenna and the judgment of Gehenna. They are two different things. Gehenna is a physical literal place with literal lake of fire, it was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem. The judgment of Gehenna is a spiritual thing, it is the reason why the beautiful valley of Ben Hinnom became a garbage dump outside Jerusalem. Although Gehenna is no longer, the judgment of Gehenna is still relevant.

#34

Actually, every one of those verses teach that all who have not come to faith in Christ before they die will be saved, since every one of those verses teach universal salvation. And since all will ultimately be saved, it follows that all conditions for salvation will ultimately be met. There’s not one verse in Scripture that teaches that those to whom God does not grant repentance and faith before they die will never be saved.

I don’t think this verse is even talking about physical death, or all people for that matter (if you’d like to start a thread on it, I’d love to discuss it with you). So no, I don’t think the author of Hebrews is teaching your view that we are judged as soon as our heart stops beating. As soon as our heart stops beating, we start returning to the dust from which we were made. Sheol/Hades is simply the state of the dead, and the state of the dead is a state of unconscious non-existence (Eccl 9:10).

No, there is not a single verse that teaches that our faith in this life determines our post-mortem destiny. Christ, who is Lord of all, is the one who determines our post-mortem destiny. And since Christ loves us at least as much as he loves himself, we can rest assured that he will save all people from everything they need to be saved from - especially their sin and rebellion. And as far as Rev 20:11-15 goes, click here for my view on this passage: The Hell on Earth View - a subset of UR

#35

Huge props to both Aaron & Student of the Word for their outstanding contributions lately. We appreciate you both!

#36

Aaron.

you said: No, there is not a single verse that teaches that our faith in this life determines our post-mortem destiny. Christ, who is Lord of all, is the one who determines our post-mortem destiny.

Born Again: Wrong. Jesus himself said… John 6:47 " Truly ,truly I say to you, he who BELIEVES in me has eternal life."
John 3:36 " He who BELIEVES IN THE SON HAS ETERNAL LIFE; BUT HE WHO DOES NOT OBEY THE SON WILL NOT SEE THE LIFE, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDES ON HIM." Jesus said if you believe on me you will have eternal life, but if you do not believe on me you will not see the life( Eternal Life) and you will get your just judgment for your unbelief.

There are many more scriptures, but I think these are very clear.

#37

By eternal life I presume you mean aionian life or the life of the ages. have you ever read anything on the meaning of words such as the hebrew ‘olam’ meaning hidden or of unknown duration (similar to the English word hellen from which we get hell - this was a word originally meaning covered or hidden - as in to hell potatoes - or gradually bury them in earth as they grow in order for them to produce more crop). Aion gives us our English word Eon or Age (how long is an eon - is it endless?).

Tolkien in his Lord of the Rings uses ages (first, second and third ages) which although pretty long are not endless and are not even the same length as each other). Punishment may well be very very long but not endless.

In hebrew law a man could only be given a maximum of 40 lashes for a non-capital offence lest he was degraded in his brethrens’ eyes. The man forgiven a massive debt who then demands payment of a much lesser debt himself is thrown into prison until he pays the last farthing. Does God forget these things once a man has died in sin?

Lastly, Hebrew law was set up with the intention that restitution and punishment by and to the offender ensured that BOTH the perpetrator and victim were restored to a right state. The punishments are never punative for their own sake.

#38

As I said before, BA, since it is apparent you don’t understand what we believe what you are asking and stating really has no relevancy as an objection with Christian Universalists.

Both Aaron and I have already stated and do not deny that “He who believes in the Son has AIONIOS ZOE, but he who does not obey the Son will not see ZOE, but the wrath of God abides on Him.”

So two questions arise.

  1. Why does God’s wrath abide on him in the first place?
  2. How long does wrath abide on him who does not believe?

The question of why is because we are bound by a holy law and missing the mark leads to one

The question of how is His wrath only lasts only so long as they are alive, the wages of sin is death.

So once a person has died, God’s wrath is satisfied and His wrath is no more, they are dead and once dead they are released from the law which bound them and there is no reason to have wrath against them.

That is why, the hope has never been anything but the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD! Read the Scriptures, that is our hope, nothing more. Everyone will be raised, those who believe are raised first and reign with Christ, those who did not believe remain dead until after the reign has finished and in the End all are raised and God becomes all in all.

1 Like
#39

Studentoftheword.
So two questions arise.

  1. Why does God’s wrath abide on him in the first place?
  2. How long does wrath abide on him who does not believe?

The question of why is because we are bound by a holy law and missing the mark leads to one

The question of how is His wrath only lasts only so long as they are alive, the wages of sin is death.

BA: Holy Law? missing the mark? What? The biblical answer to your first question comes from John 3:18 " He who believes in Jesus is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already; because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

The biblical answer to your second question comes from Revelation 14:10-11 " He will also drink of wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day or night.

Studentoftheword I suggest you give answers that are biblical instead of personal beliefs.

#40

Why is he not judged? It is because Jesus is the propitiation for those who believe. They are counted dead through Christ, and therefore released from the law that judges them.

Romans 7:4-6
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Are you yet annoyed by being trapped through your lack of knowledge of the Scriptures?

Colossians 2:13-15
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

I shan’t bore you with the details of the Scriptures if you do not even know the elementary principles of Christ to answer properly.

Revelation is a book of parables and metaphors, of which you have yet to demonstrate an understanding of it’s meaning.

First of all, it is translated “The smoke of their ‘torment’ is what goes up for an age and an age, they have no rest for a day (an age) or a night (an age).”

Second of all, the word ‘torment’ is** Basanizo**

Which means:
-A touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of
the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal.
-Torture, torment, acute pains of the pains of a disease
-The rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth
-Of those in hell after death

So let me give you a modern day understanding of Basanizo

** Driving the Car. **
If you drive your car, obeying the rules, there is no law against you. You will be tested by meters, speed
traps, traffic stops and questioning. Since you broke no laws, you are free to drive.

  If you drive a car over the speed limit, you broke the law. You receive a fine and a ticket, along with
  insurance demerits. This is to help you recognize that speeding is not productive to society and yourself.

  If you drive your car drunk, you broke the law. Because of being drunk, you drive a car over the speed
  limit. You receive a fine, a ticket, lose your license and spend some time in jail. This is to help you
  recognize that DUI is not productive to society and yourself.  

*  A touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of
  the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal.*

  Everyone was tested by meters, speed traps, traffic stops and questioning. They were all tested to
  determine if they had broken any law.

  Not everyone broke the law, and some did. Some crimes were worse than others when the law was
  broken.

  *Torture, torment, acute pains of the pains of a disease*

  Those who broke the laws, suffered a series of fines, demerits or even jail time.

  *The rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth*

  Police need to use breathalyzers, lie-detectors, interrogation tactics, and methods used to determine if
  you were DUI. Evidences gathered from these techniques, divulge the truth.

  The man who commits a DUI, is taken from society and separated from his life. He is no longer free and
  while under custody and in jail, suffers for his crimes in hopes that he may recognize his actions were
  not productive to society and himself.

There are no personal beliefs in what I am sharing with you BA, and I suggest you actually learn the difference between what is biblical fact and personal opinion, so far, the only one who has been pinned on his personal opinion is you yourself.

Matthew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

#41

Born Again,

I am new on here and don’t really know how much you and the other members have "exchanged"views/verses, but I would like to know what you think about what Jesus said in Matthew 23. He condemns the Pharisees to Gehenna but also tells them, "you won’t see me again until you say ““blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.”” Whatever the Gehenna judgment is/was,it must have had a great impact on these guys to be willing to see the truth. Even though they were “going to Hell” Jesus told them you won’t see me again UNTIL… indicating that they could have a change of heart even going to Hell. Which, also indicates a period of time not endlessness.

I agree that we are in a state of condemnation until we believe, that God’s wrath abides on us UNTIL we believe. Their is a purpose for God’s wrath…helping people to see the truth. I think that is why the Bible says ALL liars will be cast into the lake of fire. A lair has not come to the end of himself yet, or he wouldn’t still be lying, right? We lie to cover up something…not willing or able to just accept our imperfect state, or confess that we are sinners in need of a savior.

Paul told the men at Athens that God commands all men to repent. He said Christ will reign UNTIL everyone is in submission to Himself. Jesus said that if He was crucified on the cross that He would draw all men to himself. If He is going to do this, it stands to reason that some are going to see the truth, though through the fire, and call on the Lord. Revelation even speaks of “torment” being in the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels. This makes a lot more sense that endless torment. I believe God is sensible. Debbie :slight_smile:

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#42

Hey debbieboutwell.

I do not believe that all the Pharisees went to hell. I believe some of them came to a saving knowledge of Jesus before and certainly after the cross. No where in the bible does it say that the lake of fire is used to change someones heart to bring them to faith. Please show me where that is in the bible. What we think is sensible or fair does not change the truth of God’s word of Heaven and Hell. The bible is crystal clear… if you receive Jesus and put your faith in His sacrifice for you…you will spend eternity in Heaven with the Lord or if you reject Jesus you are choosing to pay the penalty of your sins… separated from God for eternity…which is the second death, the lake of fire. ( Rev 20:11-15)

#43

and remind me which Greek word is rendered eternity in these passages?

#44

My experience with folks like Born Again on other CU forums is that they aren’t really here to learn and have their questions meaningfully answered. They’re typically here simply to troll and make trouble, and they invariably ended up getting banned from the forum. In fact, it seems like I’ve seen someone fitting the above description use this same name over at Tentmaker awhile back. The posts definitely look very similar, in any case.

This individual certainly fits the pattern. They come on to a forum, continually post several ECT based threads, refuse to listen to anyone who isn’t an ultra-literalist like them, or to any well-reasoned biblical response.

#45

Melchizedek.

Believe in Universalism or be banned Melchizedek? We are having good respectful discussions. I was informed that there are many beliefs on this forum… not just UR. If you are offended by my lack of faith in Universalism…sorry. I do not believe I’m causing trouble or trolling…whatever that is.

#46

Sure, BA. Go ahead and twist my words. If respectful discussion is what you want to call it, then by all means indulge your fantasy there. The only ones I’ve seen conductiing a respectful discussion are those who have attempted to meaningfully answer your ‘questions’, only to have you essentially blow them off. I know how this goes, I’ve seen it many times.

I’ve seen enough people like yourself on universalist discussion boards to know better than to take the bait, so I have nothing further to say to you on the matter. I was simply trying to let my forum mates know what I’ve seen based on my experiences on other boards, but it’s their time to waste should they decide that’s what they’d like to do.

That is, until you eventually get yourself banned…

Pax

#47

Born Again,

I agree. I just think God’s plans are sensible and so is His word reguarding Heaven and Hell. Taking into consideration the teachings of Jesus and Paul, what they said and really what they did not say, and, the original languages of the Bible, I will take the sensible side. God said, “my ways are not your ways, nor, my thoughts your thought”… These “thoughts and ways” that are so foreign to us fallen humans are all about His ability to love and forgive. Not, about His ability to torture people just because He made them. Knowing what I know now, makes telling the old, old, story so much more fulfilling.

Anyway, to each his own,

Debbie :slight_smile:

#48

Debbie.
God does not torture anyone for the sake of torturing them. People choose to go to hell because they reject Jesus Christ. They choose the world over having a relationship with God through His Son. :frowning: