Gehenna?

[RanRan]

So again, if the “fire” of v. 49 is the same “fire” of the previous verses, then pas in v. 49 simply cannot be understood to mean “all mankind” or “all people without exception.”

I think that’s a mistake when ‘salting’ or ‘being salted’ is always referenced as a good thing - purifying and making acceptable. I wanna be salted! “You’re the salt of the earth!”

“If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.” Ps 139

So if even in the depths, His Fire is ‘salting’ men - how can that possibly be a bad thing for them or anyone?

‘Everyone will be salted with fire.’ That is either the worst mixed metaphor in history or a great universal truth.

So in all this cutting off our hands or plucking out our eyeballs to make ourselves acceptable, have we forgotten how this all works? We know it’s from the top down, not from the bottom up. Did those he was addressing understand that? I doubt it, and they certainly hadn’t a clue as to just how top down salvation was going to be - How have WE been found acceptable?? By something we did? So might He be teaching that the things men need to do, but men can’t do without His help and without His fire?

So He leaves them and US with this cryptic 'salting with fire" - a good thing by this seemingly bad thing. He’s talking about the perfecting of the resurrected.

If the joke is in the metaphor, which I think it is, it’s being played on, as usual, the self-righteous, who believe everyone, but them, deserves hell. We’ll see how that works out for them - or is it US? Are we missing the forest for the trees? Or the metaphor for the ‘lesson’ in this case?

The enhanced version: “If you say you are without sin, you’re a friggin’ liar!” Do you understand what THAT is saying and what Christ is saying by way of metaphor? Only a fool would say that anyone is worthy and ready for the resurrection. Expect some salting. ‘Religion’ is another word for pride and self-deception. Examine your heart.

Everything I claim you to be, I find I am. Can you understand that?

[RanRan]

So again, if the “fire” of v. 49 is the same

“fire” of the previous verses, then pas in v. 49 simply cannot be understood to mean “all mankind” or “all people without exception.”

I think that’s a mistake when ‘salting’ or ‘being salted’ is always referenced as a good thing - purifying and making acceptable. I wanna be salted! “You’re the salt of the earth!”

“If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.” Ps 139

So if even in the depths, His Fire is ‘salting’ men - how can that possibly be a bad thing for them or anyone?

‘Everyone will be salted with fire.’ That is either the worst mixed metaphor in history or a great universal truth.

So in all this cutting off our hands or plucking out our eyeballs to make ourselves acceptable, have we forgotten how this all works? We know it’s from the top down, not from the bottom up. Did those he was addressing understand that? I doubt it, and they certainly hadn’t a clue as to just how top down salvation was going to be - How have WE been found acceptable?? By something we did? So might He be teaching that the things men need to do, but men can’t do without His help and without His fire?

So He leaves them and US with this cryptic 'salting with fire" - a good thing by this seemingly bad thing. He’s talking about the perfecting of the resurrected.

If the joke is in the metaphor, which I think it is, it’s being played on, as usual, the self-righteous, who believe everyone, but them, deserves hell. We’ll see how that works out for them - or is it US? Are we missing the forest for the trees? Or the metaphor for the ‘lesson’ in this case?

The enhanced version: “If you say you are without sin, you’re a friggin’ liar!” Do you understand what THAT is saying and what Christ is saying by way of metaphor? Only a fool would say that anyone is worthy and ready for the resurrection. Expect some salting. ‘Religion’ is another word for pride and self-deception. Examine your heart.

Everything I claim you to be, I find I am. Can you understand that?

I can understand that you will hope for, wish for the weakest arguments against you - but where are they?

[Aaron]

RanRan wrote:
I think that’s a mistake when ‘salting’ or ‘being salted’ is always referenced as a good thing - purifying and making acceptable.

So in other words, if the “fire” of which Jesus speaks in v. 49 is a “good thing” (and I’m not saying it isn’t; I think it is) it must therefore refer to a universal experience? That is, is it your position that being “salted with fire” could not be a “good thing” unless it was a universal experience (i.e., what happens at the resurrection) as opposed to, say, a local judgment? Because the more I study the passage, the more the context (and even the grammar) seems to indicate that the “fire” with which people would be “salted” refers back to the “unquenchable fire” of “Gehenna” in the previous verses - which would mean that being “salted with fire” is not an all-inclusive experience (since being “thrown into Gehenna” was not an inevitable fate for those to whom Christ was speaking).

[Aaron]

Everyone,

In the opening post for this thread, Mike wrote:

I personally don’t see any scriptural proof that Gehenna was anything other than a literal place with a literal fire, worms, and even a gnashing of teeth. I would love to know at what point in time did Gehenna become symbolic for hell.

I would love to know this as well! Gehenna certainly wasn’t symbolic for “hell” in the OT, so when did it come to symbolize endless punishment in a future state of existence?

[RanRan]

RanRan wrote:
I think that’s a mistake when ‘salting’ or ‘being salted’ is always referenced as a good thing - purifying and making acceptable.

So in other words, if the “fire” of which Jesus speaks in v. 49 is a “good thing” (and I’m not saying it isn’t; I think it is) it must therefore refer to a universal experience? That is, is it your position that being “salted with fire” could not be a “good thing” unless it was a universal experience (i.e., what happens at the resurrection) as opposed to, say, a local judgment? Because the more I study the passage, the more the context (and even the grammar) seems to indicate that the “fire” with which people would be “salted” refers back to the “unquenchable fire” of “Gehenna” in the previous verses - which would mean that being “salted with fire” is not an all-inclusive experience (since being “thrown into Gehenna” was not an inevitable fate for those to whom Christ was speaking).

An ‘unquenchable fire’ does not speak to me of an unending ‘salting’. ‘Salt is good’, he tells us that.

“In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire…” 1 Pet

His fire is always spoken of as eternal and unquenchable - but I can’t find evidence anywhere that the ‘salting’ by it is eternal. Can you?

What I do find is that people emerge from it - refined. If Christ meant something other than that refining - I don’t think He would have worded it the way He did: “Everyone will be salted with fire.” It’s very easy to prove that that salting is/will be the universal experience of mankind redeemed from death - which everyone.

So, is it a matter (in all cases) of getting what we deserve or getting what we need?

[Aaron]

RanRan wrote:
An ‘unquenchable fire’ does not speak to me of an unending ‘salting’.

Just trying to follow you on this: so is it your view that IF the “fire” with which people were to be “salted” in v. 49 is the same fire that is called “unquenchable” in the previous verses, then it would follow that the “salting” would be endless in duration? Because I don’t think it’s necessary to affirm that an “unquenchable fire” means an endlessly burning fire. In the examples I provided earlier, expressions such as “fire that will never be quenched” clearly referred to temporal judgments of finite duration. So my understanding is that, even if the “fire” with which people would be “salted” referred to what is previously called the “unquenchable fire” of Gehenna, it wouldn’t follow that the “salting” would be unending. While the benefit of the salting would be endless, the “salting” itself would not be. But maybe I’m misunderstanding you on this.

[RanRan]

So my understanding is that, even if the “fire” with which people would be “salted” referred to what is previously called the “unquenchable fire” of Gehenna, it wouldn’t follow that the “salting” would be unending. While the benefit of the salting would be endless, the “salting” itself would not be. But maybe I’m misunderstanding you on this.

That’s pretty much it.

Two things: ‘Salt’ or ‘salting’ is never spoken of as a negative.

Likewise: His fire is eternal and is constructive and refining in purpose and always has been.

Anyway - the sequence of verses under discussion aren’t really about hell - they are about humility. It starts with His disciples arguing about who is the greatest among them and perhaps passing that pride to others - so He repeats this twice: ‘it is better for you…’ to enter heaven as…less.’

The images used by Christ go to the heart of pride - which suitable for the garbage dump until it’s gone. ‘All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.’

It takes a particularly prideful, self-righteous person to deceive themselves into thinking that others need to be salted with fire, but not them. Sounds like religion, doesn’t it?

‘The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled and the pride of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.’ Is 2

So was Christ teaching here about the destiny of men or the destiny of pride? It’s a nightmare to the prideful, that’s for sure. But the salting has a purpose - to humble us all.

Did Christ really say that everyone will be salted with fire? Yes. What a stumbling block for the self-righteous, the proud and the superior! Let us all try and understand the nightmare for what it is. It’s a test. Forgive as you have been forgiven. If one can’t do that, send ‘them’ to the fire …and expect to join them.

[RanRan]

So in all this, Aaron, it’s important to keep in mind that He is talking to His disciples and He is scolding them in all of it. It’s strange how people can understand the hyperbole of cutting off limbs to enter heaven but can’t see the same use of hyperbole being used to describe the place (or time) of humbling - Gehenna.

But, likewise, in all this, they would have understood that ‘salting’ as being good and necessary. Christ could have used the image of a smoldering slag heap or dross heap to convey much the same idea of salting being refining and corrective, rather than destructive. But the immediate confrontation of the pride of His disciples called for worms and garbage as the hyperbole of choice, not leaving an occasion for pride to say, “I’ll be made even greater!”

I find that “Everyone will be salted with fire” to be very much a part of the Good News for mankind - and integral in the preparation of/for the new creation.

So Jason asks:

Where is the resurrection into crisis distinct from the resurrection into life, in this?

As far as ‘salting’ goes, there is no distinction. The judgment (not the salting) is about rewards and is always based on works - ‘he who is not against us is for us’ - the crisis comes from hindering the advance of His Kingdom and that well may be reserved, mainly, for the religious. But whatever may be the case, none of us are saved by the fire but by Christ’s work of redeeming mankind from death.

[Aaron]

RanRan wrote:
Did Christ really say that everyone will be salted with fire? Yes. What a stumbling block for the self-righteous, the proud and the superior! Let us all try and understand the nightmare for what it is. It’s a test. Forgive as you have been forgiven. If one can’t do that, send ‘them’ to the fire …and expect to join them.

and

So in all this, Aaron, it’s important to keep in mind that He is talking to His disciples and He is scolding them in all of it. It’s strange how people can understand the hyperbole of cutting off limbs to enter heaven but can’t see the same use of hyperbole being used to describe the place (or time) of humbling - Gehenna.

I find that “Everyone will be salted with fire” to be very much a part of the Good News for mankind - and integral in the preparation of/for the new creation.

Ran, while I love the emphasis you put on humility and God’s sovereignty, I’m not sure I can agree with your exposition of Mark 9:42-50. Jesus really does seem to have two different ends in view in this passage (i.e., entering life/the kingdom of God or being “thrown into Gehenna,” where “the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched”). We both agree that Christ is using hyperbole when he speaks of people cutting off body parts to enter life/the kingdom, but this colorful language still stands for something drastic that those to whom he spoke would have to do in order to avoid the fate of “Gehenna.” And while I do believe that every member of the human race will, at the resurrection, be “purged” of all sin and self-righteousness (for all people are going to be subjected to Christ!), I don’t think that’s being taught here, and I fail to see how “Gehenna” is being used to denote this universal experience.

For one thing, there is nothing said about the resurrection or any kind of post-mortem experience anywhere in this passage, or in the surrounding context. I think the main reason you’re reading the resurrection into this passage is because Jesus talks of “the worm that does not die,” which (from what you’ve said before) you apparently understand to be a reference to death and the grave. But the image of “unquenchable fire” and undying worms refers more accurately and specifically to the Valley of Hinnom/Gehenna, which became Jerusalem’s garbage dump during the reign of King Josiah (2Kings 23:10), and shortly after (during the prophetic ministry of Jeremiah) became associated with, and emblematic of, the fearful judgment that God threatened to bring upon the nation of Israel for her sins (Jer 7:31-32; 19) - which Christ was clearly hearkening back to when he employed the word during his own ministry!

Moreover, the image of “fire” is never (as far as I can tell) associated with the resurrection of the dead. But it is frequently associated with temporal judgment/punishment of people and nations. And the more I consider this passage, the more convinced I am that the word pas (“everyone” or “all”) here seems to refer only to *everyone who would be “thrown into Gehenna” * - which again, was one of two possible ends of which Christ spoke (like when he spoke of the “narrow gate” and “hard way” that leads to “life,” and the “broad gate” and “easy way” that leads to “destruction”). And as I’m sure you’re aware, pas need not refer to every person who has ever been born or ever will be born (see, for example, Matt 8:16; 10:22; 15:37; 17:11; 22:28; 27:22; Mark 2:12; 3:10; 6:42; 14:23, 50; etc.). Though I have no doubt that it sometimes refers to the entire human race, it doesn’t always (or even mostly) have such a universal scope. Its meaning can only be determined by the context. And the context of Mark 9 is not the universal resurrection (for that, see Mark 12:18-27).

[RanRan]

Moreover, the image of “fire” is never (as far as I can tell) associated with the resurrection of the dead.

I know. It’s a little maddening, jumping from death to paradise - and surrounded with people who also make it paradise. What makes us all so lovely to be with all of sudden? That’s the mystery to me - because a new body is nice, but that’s not going to cut it…because that’s still not a new creation, that’s merely a re-clad creation.

Is the resurrection about MoreofMe and MoreofYou and MoreofThis? God help us if it is.

So I look to Christ on that question. God will do right in all this, and I will let Him solve the problem.

When Christ says that ‘everyone will be salted with fire’ I say, ‘Aha - that’s where the fixing occurs’.

In all this it’s the same Christ who took away the sins of the world and the same Father who is not counting men’s sins against them and the same Spirit teaching men the truth.

What is it about an eternal fire that scares you when His love is in it? I don’t want MoreofMe, I want ME with my true eternal name.

What I can’t decipher from your argument is when or where all this magic happens.

[John]

Not as salty a language as in the past but the fire is still there!

That was a grand message in it’s simplicity and it’s well placed trust. You write with a rare clairity, Ran.

[RanRan]

Thanks John. In the lesson given to His disciples in this short segment of scripture, He covers a gamut of possibilities: from being certainly rewarded for giving a cup of water. That’s sounds easy, except it may be better for the same guy to cut off the same hand that gave the cup of water for causing someone else to sin. If he doesn’t do that ‘surgery’ he ends up on a burning garbage heap but still is rewarded. If the rewarded are or are to be or can be salted with fire without losing their reward, then why not everyone?

OR, if the salting by fire is to be avoided at all costs, why not give someone a cup of water, then shut-up and wait it out? Of course, THAT might be sinning and if others follow the example…

The rewards of trepidation?? Then we got Luther saying “If you are going to sin, sin boldly!” Man, is he ever going to burn for that one! Meanwhile, the powers that be here, are figuring out a way to make this all a sweet little dispassionate tea party.

What could be clearer?

[Aaron]

I know. It’s a little maddening, jumping from death to paradise - and surrounded with people who also make it paradise. What makes us all so lovely to be with all of sudden? That’s the mystery to me - because a new body is nice, but that’s not going to cut it…because that’s still not a new creation, that’s merely a re-clad creation.

I don’t have all the answers, Ran. While I’ve suggested how this “jump from death to paradise” might be accomplished elsewhere on this forum, it’s still largely a mystery to me. But what I am confident of is that death is the last enemy, and that when, by Christ’s command, death is swallowed up in victory, all people will be subjected to Christ and reconciled to God. Consequently, no sin or self-righteousness extends beyond this mortal existence.

Is the resurrection about MoreofMe and MoreofYou and MoreofThis? God help us if it is.

I certainly don’t think so. But if, after the resurrection, people are still in need of being humbled and purged of sin by the “fire” of Mark 9:49 (which I don’t think you’ve even defined yet), then it would, in fact, be the case that the resurrection is “MoreofMe and MoreofYou and MoreofThis.”

What is it about an eternal fire that scares you when His love is in it? I don’t want MoreofMe, I want ME with my true eternal name.

The fire of Mark 9:49 doesn’t scare me. And that’s not only because of the fact that I see God’s love being present in all the trying circumstances of life, but because I see Jesus’ words in Mark 9 as referring specifically to a judgment that took place almost 2,000 years ago.

What I can’t decipher from your argument is when or where all this magic happens.

It happens when death is destroyed (1 Cor 15:21-28). As to where it happens, apparently it happens right here on earth, just before we’re caught up in the clouds to meet Christ in the air (1 Thess 4:13-18).

[RanRan]

Consequently, no sin or self-righteousness extends beyond this mortal existence.

Agreed. I can’t imagine the resurrected being infested like that. Of course, a self-righteous person doesn’t believe that at all - they expect those ‘bad’ people to carry their sin and their sinful attitudes into the resurrection - much like their own.

Is one’s understanding of these things then a TEST? How can one side with those who say that some of the resurrected are resurrected with their sin, while not recognizing the same possibility for themselves?

Remember in all this, He was addressing believers - His own disciples. So to argue that one is ‘washed’ still doesn’t address the possibility of bringing one’s ‘actual’ sin and sinful attitudes (peccadilloes?) into the resurrection. If they claim that those ‘little sins’ will be shed before entering. Then I would submit that that propensity to sin is shed by the same salting by the same fire they claim they are immune to and will never undergo.

So Christ’s “Everyone will be salted with fire.” Stands as a universal truth, just as the rewards for faith stand as just that - Rewards!

[Aaron]

RanRan wrote:
Agreed. I can’t imagine the resurrected being infested like that. Of course, a self-righteous person doesn’t believe that at all - they expect those ‘bad’ people to carry their sin and their sinful attitudes into the resurrection - much like their own.

Is one’s understanding of these things then a TEST? How can one side with those who say that resurrected are resurrected with their sin, while not recognizing the same possibility for themselves?

Good point. Most Christians will admit that they are far from sinless now (“not perfect, just forgiven” is a common evangelical expression), yet they’re confident that, after death, they will be made sinless and thus fit for heaven - and that not gradually, but instantaneously! Well I submit that if God can do it for them, then he can - and will - do it for everyone.

[John]

instantaneously!

There is the matter of the corporate soul of the mystical body of Christ. You throw in loving your neighbor as yourself and you may not be complete until the last soul is free from the corruption of the world and bows with bended knee. The principle of “the last being first” and "the least becoming the greatest " paints a picture where time with it’s events might never end.

Do we THINK in our resurrected state. If so the move toward perfection in love marches on.

My belief is that there is nothing instantaneous with regard to our loving God who’s Love ever increases. What kind of a state is “INSTANTANEOUS!”

I am opting out of “INSTANTANEOUS!” RanRan salt me with some more of your fire … and give me some four letter words while you’re at it!

John

[RanRan]

instantaneously!

There is the matter of the corporate soul of the mystical body of Christ. You throw in loving your neighbor as yourself and you may not be complete until the last soul is free from the corruption of the world and bows with bended knee. The principle of “the last being first” and "the least becoming the greatest " paints a picture where time with it’s events might never end.

Do we THINK in our resurrected state. If so the move toward perfection in love marches on.

My belief is that there is nothing instantaneous with regard to our loving God who’s Love ever increases. What kind of a state is “INSTANTANEOUS!”

I am opting out of “INSTANTANEOUS!” RanRan salt me with some more of your fire … and give me some four letter words while you’re at it!

John

John, you already are a four letter word!

Looks like we got a vote for growth IN the resurrection. Are you saying that things start out a little awkward or rough at the beginning and then smooth out - especially, if He lets ME in?

Even if it was instantaneous new thinking in our resurrected state - one could still grow in it, right? Endless depths and all that. And it might take you two million years just to beat me at ping-pong with Aaron chattering on the sidelines, “Hey, He really IS God!”

[Aaron]

Looks like we got a vote for growth IN the resurrection. Are you saying that things start out a little awkward or rough at the beginning and then smooth out - especially, if He lets ME in?

Even if it was instantaneous new thinking in our resurrected state - one could still grow in it, right? Endless depths and all that.

I’m all for growth in the resurrection - I just deny we’ll be growing less and less sinful.

And it might take you two million years just to beat me at ping-pong with Aaron chattering on the sidelines, “Hey, He really IS God!”

Well after I recover from the shock, I’ll whup you both at ping-pong, left-handed and blindfolded.

[John]

Still laughing at Ran’s retort.

I’m all for growth in the resurrection - I just deny we’ll be growing less and less sinful.

What is sinful? Do we ever perfectly hit the mark?

If so, the Trinitarians better get out their adding machines and start making some new rooms in the Godhead.

[Aaron]

John wrote:
What is sinful? Do we ever perfectly hit the mark?

If so, the Trinitarians better get out their adding machines and start making some new rooms in the Godhead.

“Sin is lawlessness” (1 John 3:4). So according to your view, every past, present and future citizen of Heaven (with the exception of God alone) is going to be a moral lawbreaker for all eternity. What a beautiful and glorious view of Heaven you have, John…so much to look forward to!