Gehenna?

[richardinparadise]

Sherman,

Nice work! I will take time to digest all that you have shared, and then try to get into a form that will work on my website. I’ll run it by you first.

Richard

[sven]

maybe Origen is one of the most contemporary sources concerning Gehenna:

Moreover, Celsus says that the diagram was “divided by a thick black line, and this line he asserted was called Gehenna, which is Tartarus.” Now as we found that Gehenna was mentioned in the Gospel as a place of punishment, we searched to see whether it is mentioned anywhere in the ancient Scriptures, and especially because the Jews too use the word. And we ascertained that where the valley of the son of Ennom was named in Scripture in the Hebrew, instead of “valley,” with fundamentally the same meaning, it was termed both the valley of Ennom and also Geenna. And continuing our researches, we find that what was termed “Geenna,” or “the valley of Ennom,” was included in the lot of the tribe of Benjamin, in which Jerusalem also was situated. And seeking to ascertain what might be the inference from the heavenly Jerusalem belonging to the lot of Benjamin and the valley of Ennom, we find a certain confirmation of what is said regarding the place of punishment, intended for the purification of such souls as are to be purified by torments, agreeably to the saying: “The Lord cometh like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver and of gold. It is in the precincts of Jerusalem, then, that punishments will be inflicted upon those who undergo the process of purification, who have received into the substance of their soul the elements of wickedness, which in a certain place is figuratively termed “lead,” and on that account iniquity is represented in Zechariah as sitting upon a “talent of lead.” But the remarks which might be made on this topic are neither to be made to all, nor to be uttered on the present occasion; for it is not unattended with danger to commit to writing the explanation of such subjects, seeing the multitude need no further instruction than that which relates to the punishment of sinners; while to ascend beyond this is not expedient, for the sake of those who are with difficulty restrained, even by fear of eternal punishment, from plunging into any degree of wickedness, and into the flood of evils which result from sin.

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.v … .xxvi.html

I doubt that the sources from the Talmud are contemporary with Christ,

in the apocryphal “ascension of Isaiah”, the use of Gehenna seems to imply the final annihilation of the wicked:

earlychristianwritings.com/t … nsion.html

1:3

And of the eternal judgments and torments of Gehenna, and of the prince of this world, and of his angels, and his authorities and his powers.

I suppose “eternal” is olam as it seems to preserved only in Ethiopic language, as the work later teaches annihilation, we might understand, “the judgment and the punishment of Gehenna in the world to come”

4:14

And after (one thousand) three hundred and thirty-two days the Lord will come with His angels and with the armies of the holy ones from the seventh heaven with the glory of the seventh heaven, and He will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies.

4:18

Then the voice of the Beloved will in wrath rebuke the things of heaven and the things of earth and the things of earth and the mountains and the hills and the cities and the desert and the forests and the angel of the sun and that of the moon, and all things wherein Beliar manifested himself and acted openly in this world, and there will be [a resurrection and] a judgment in their midst in those days, and the Beloved will cause fire to go forth from Him, and it will consume all the godless, and they will be as though they had not been created.

in the apocryphal 4th book of Ezra, Gehenna might in fact denote everlasting torment, other sources say that Gehenna was not yet in use at the time of Christ, neither Philo no Josephus mention the term, and that Christ most likely meant nothing but the literal valley of Hinnom and a merely earthly punishment (i.e. death penalty though no eschatological annihilation) by Gehenna

also see here:

tentmaker.org/books/mercyand … t_ch8.html

[Sherman]

maybe Origen is one of the most contemporary sources concerning Gehenna:

Moreover, Celsus says that the diagram was “divided by a thick black line, and this line he asserted was called Gehenna, which is Tartarus.” Now as we found that Gehenna was mentioned in the Gospel as a place of punishment, we searched to see whether it is mentioned anywhere in the ancient Scriptures, and especially because the Jews too use the word

. And we ascertained that where the valley of the son of Ennom was named in Scripture in the Hebrew, instead of “valley,” with fundamentally the same meaning, it was termed both the valley of Ennom and also Geenna. And continuing our researches, we find that what was termed “Geenna,” or “the valley of Ennom,” was included in the lot of the tribe of Benjamin, in which Jerusalem also was situated. And seeking to ascertain what might be the inference from the heavenly Jerusalem belonging to the lot of Benjamin and the valley of Ennom, we find a certain confirmation of what is said regarding the place of punishment, intended for the purification of such souls as are to be purified by torments, agreeably to the saying: “The Lord cometh like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver and of gold. It is in the precincts of Jerusalem, then, that punishments will be inflicted upon those who undergo the process of purification, who have received into the substance of their soul the elements of wickedness, which in a certain place is figuratively termed “lead,” and on that account iniquity is represented in Zechariah as sitting upon a “talent of lead.” But the remarks which might be made on this topic are neither to be made to all, nor to be uttered on the present occasion; for it is not unattended with danger to commit to writing the explanation of such subjects, seeing the multitude need no further instruction than that which relates to the punishment of sinners; while to ascend beyond this is not expedient, for the sake of those who are with difficulty restrained, even by fear of eternal punishment, from plunging into any degree of wickedness, and into the flood of evils which result from sin.
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.v … .xxvi.html

So Origen, after seeking to understand Gehenna from a Jewish perspective found Gehenna to be referencing a “process of purification”. This confirms the meaning that is spoken of in the Talmud and Mishnah, that of Gehenna being a place/event of purification.

It’s also interesting to note that Origen goes on to say that though Gehenna was found to mean a process of purification, for people who with difficulty are restrained from evil by the threat of Hell, eternal punishment, it’s likely best not to dissuade them from their belief. In other words, if the fear of Hell is the only thing keeping ignorant people from wickedness and evil, it is best to not teach them otherwise.

I doubt that the sources from the Talmud are contemporary with Christ,

The Talmud itself is not contemporary with Christ, being it was not written until 500 A.D. But Shammai and Hillel who are quoted in the Talmud are contemporaries of Christ. And it is significant to note that Judaism had changed little in that 500 years; the teachings of the Pharisees were pretty calcified which the Talmud reflects. And of course, the Sadducees had long passed off the scene. Shammai and Hillel were both Pharisees, and the Talmud are the written Oral traditions of the Pharisees.

[Sherman]

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/mercyandjudgment/mercy_and_judgment_ch8.html

The article, chapter from Farrar’s book notes the following:

I cannot express this position more briefly than by saying that to a Jewish ear “Gehenna” did not mean “a place of necessarily endless torment,” and therefore that “hell”, when used as the equivalent of Gehenna, ought not to be so defined. The word “hell”, in its popular usage, does but blur and misrepresent the conception of the word Gehenna, because it stands for a complex mass of inferences which out not to be introduced into that compressed Jewish metaphor for future retribution.

As noted in my first post on this thread, the Jews referenced Gehenna as a place of punishment through which most, the average person, passed as a means of purification before rising to Ga Eden (paradise). As to the especially wicked people wholly given over to evil, the Rabbis argued over whether or not they were annihilated or continued to suffer indefinitely longer than the 12 months that was thought to take to annihilate a person.

It is thus important to understand and interpret Jesus’ words concerning Gehenna with this understanding. And thus the word “Hell” is a poor translation of Gehenna.

[Sherman]

Hi Craig, as noted in the other thread on Mt.25.46, I wanted to respond to your thought on Gehenna, but here on this thread on Gehenna. So here it is.

Do a Scriptural search on the Valley of Ben Hinnom and Topheth. Do not presume to know what it is talking about.

I do not “presume to know what it is talking about.” Rather, my beliefs are based on my research, as I’m sure yours are. Why we’ve come up with two different beliefs, we’ll see. Could I be wrong? Yep. Could you be wrong? Yep. Could we both be wrong? Yep.

From the extractions of what is written concerning this place, you will see that it has NOTHING to do with purging except for the destruction of apostate Israel who killed the prophets and killed their children in the fires to Molech and Baal and the judgment that upon that generation, their house will become desolate. It is also the prophesy of Christ…but that will be explained later.

This is the judgment of Ben Hinnom, Gehenna:

Jeremiah 7
This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD : "Stand at the gate of the LORD’s house and there proclaim this message:
" 'Hear the word of the LORD, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the LORD. This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. 4 Do not trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD!” If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever. But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.

'Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe”-safe to do all these detestable things? Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the LORD.

‘Go now to the place in Shiloh where I first made a dwelling for my Name, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of my people Israel. While you were doing all these things, declares the LORD, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer. Therefore, what I did to Shiloh I will now do to the house that bears my Name, the temple you trust in, the place I gave to you and your fathers. I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your brothers, the people of Ephraim.’

"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger. But am I the one they are provoking? declares the LORD. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame?

" 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground, and it will burn and not be quenched.

" ‘This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. From the time your forefathers left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. But they did not listen to me or pay attention. [size=150]They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their forefathers.’
[/size]
"When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer. Therefore say to them, 'This is the nation that has not obeyed the LORD its God or responded to correction. Truth has perished; it has vanished from their lips. Cut off your hair and throw it away; take up a lament on the barren heights, [size=150]for the LORD has rejected and abandoned this generation that is under his wrath.[/size]

" 'The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. [size=150]I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.[/size]

Jeremiah 19
This is what the LORD says: "Go and buy a clay jar from a potter. Take along some of the elders of the people and of the priest and go out to the Valley of Ben Hinnom, near the entrance of the Potsherd Gate. There proclaim the words I tell you, and say, 'Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and people of Jerusalem. This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Listen! I am going to bring a disaster on this place that will make the ears of everyone who hears of it tingle. For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned sacrifices in it to gods that neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah ever knew, [size=150]and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. [/size]They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call this place Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.

" ‘In this place I will ruin the plans of Judah and Jerusalem. I will make them fall by the sword before their enemies, at the hands of those who seek their lives, and I will give their carcasses as food to the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth. I will devastate this city and make it an object of scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds. I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.’

2 Kings 23:10-19
He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice his son or daughter in the fire to Molech. He removed from the entrance to the temple of the LORD the horses that the kings of Judah had dedicated to the sun. They were in the court near the room of an official named Nathan-Melech. Josiah then burned the chariots dedicated to the sun.

He pulled down the altars the kings of Judah had erected on the roof near the upper room of Ahaz, and the altars Manasseh had built in the two courts of the temple of the LORD. He removed them from there, smashed them to pieces and threw the rubble into the Kidron Valley. The king also desecrated the high places that were east of Jerusalem on the south of the Hill of Corruption—the ones Solomon king of Israel had built for Ashtoreth the vile goddess of the Sidonians, for Chemosh the vile god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the people of Ammon. Josiah smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles and covered the sites with human bones.

Even the altar at Bethel, the high place made by Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had caused Israel to sin—even that altar and high place he demolished. He burned the high place and ground it to powder, and burned the Asherah pole also. Then Josiah looked around, and when he saw the tombs that were there on the hillside, he had the bones removed from them and burned on the altar to defile it, in accordance with the word of the LORD proclaimed by the man of God who foretold these things.

[size=150]The king asked, “What is that tombstone I see?”
The men of the city said, “It marks the tomb of the man of God who came from Judah and pronounced against the altar of Bethel the very things you have done to it.”

“Leave it alone,” he said. “Don’t let anyone disturb his bones.” So they spared his bones and those of the prophet who had come from Samaria.[/size]

Just as he had done at Bethel, Josiah removed and defiled all the shrines at the high places that the kings of Israel had built in the towns of Samaria that had provoked the LORD to anger. Josiah slaughtered all the priests of those high places on the altars and burned human bones on them. Then he went back to Jerusalem.

Should I continue?

Isaiah 30:15-33
This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says:
"In repentance and rest is your salvation,
in quietness and trust is your strength,
but you would have none of it.

You said, ‘No, we will flee on horses.’
Therefore you will flee!
You said, ‘We will ride off on swift horses.’
Therefore your pursuers will be swift!

A thousand will flee
at the threat of one;
at the threat of five
you will all flee away,
till you are left
like a flagstaff on a mountaintop,
like a banner on a hill."

Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you;
he rises to show you compassion.
For the LORD is a God of justice.
Blessed are all who wait for him!

O people of Zion, who live in Jerusalem, you will weep no more. How gracious he will be when you cry for help! As soon as he hears, he will answer you. Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them. Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.” Then you will defile your idols overlaid with silver and your images covered with gold; you will throw them away like a menstrual cloth and say to them, “Away with you!”

He will also send you rain for the seed you sow in the ground, and the food that comes from the land will be rich and plentiful. In that day your cattle will graze in broad meadows. The oxen and donkeys that work the soil will eat fodder and mash, spread out with fork and shovel. In the day of great slaughter, when the towers fall, streams of water will flow on every high mountain and every lofty hill. The moon will shine like the sun, and the sunlight will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven full days, when the LORD binds up the bruises of his people and heals the wounds he inflicted.

See, the Name of the LORD comes from afar,
with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke;
his lips are full of wrath,
and his tongue is a consuming fire.

His breath is like a rushing torrent,
rising up to the neck.
He shakes the nations in the sieve of destruction;
he places in the jaws of the peoples
a bit that leads them astray.

And you will sing
as on the night you celebrate a holy festival;
your hearts will rejoice
as when people go up with flutes
to the mountain of the LORD,
to the Rock of Israel.

The LORD will cause men to hear his majestic voice
and will make them see his arm coming down
with raging anger and consuming fire,
with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail.

The voice of the LORD will shatter Assyria;
with his scepter he will strike them down.

Every stroke the LORD lays on them
with his punishing rod
will be to the music of tambourines and harps,
as he fights them in battle with the blows of his arm.

Topheth has long been prepared;
it has been made ready for the king.
Its fire pit has been made deep and wide,
with an abundance of fire and wood;
the breath of the LORD,
like a stream of burning sulfur,
sets it ablaze.

Now Read every passage Christ spoke of concerning Gehenna, and you will realize he was talking about this judgment and to whom he was talking to!

Ok, I’ve reread every passage where Jesus warns of Gehenna and Jesus is speaking of doing good or doing evil on an individual level, not on the corporate level. Don’t misunderstand me, God does judge families, groups, and nations; but in the passages where Jesus warns of Gehenna, His warnings are directed towards individuals, not nations; He is not warning of judgment against Israel.

As noted in my previous posts on this thread, the reason that I believe that Jesus is warning of personal remedial judgment/punishment is because Gehenna was used as a metaphor in Rabbinical thought of His day. Both Rabbis Hillel and Shammai used Gehenna as a metaphor of remedial punishment. Both assumed that most people who went through such judgment/punishment ultimately rose to Ga Eden (Paradise).

Of course, one passage in the OT that you didn’t mention was Jer.32.35 which says, “They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.”

I hadn’t thought of this previously, but it is amazing that the Pharisees would use the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gehenna) as a metaphor of punishment considering that God inspired Jeremiah to say that sacrificing, burning to death, one’s sons and daughters in such a place Never entered the mind of God, and in fact was “Detestable” to Him. They were one twisted bunch of hypocrites. But of course, the traditional doctrine of Hell has God burning those created in His image, His children, burning them forever or until they are annihilated - but such has never entered the heart or mind of God!

The Pharisees would have been much wiser to speak of Isaiah’s encounter with the Lord when the Lord took a coal from the altar and purified him. This is the hope that I have, that God’s judgment of our sins is remedial, for our good. And like Isaiah, we’ll repent completely and recieve His cleansing and love - though it be tough love.

[richardinparadise]

Sherman, I’ve been quietly reading your posts. You have made a pretty good case that contempories of Jesus viewed Gehenna as a place of “remedial” punishment, punishment equal to and fitting the crimes.

[AUniversalist]

I hadn’t thought of this previously, but it is amazing that the Pharisees would use the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gehenna) as a metaphor of punishment considering that God inspired Jeremiah to say that sacrificing, burning to death, one’s sons and daughters in such a place Never entered the mind of God, and in fact was “Detestable” to Him. They were one twisted bunch of hypocrites. But of course, the traditional doctrine of Hell has God burning those created in His image, His children, burning them forever or until they are annihilated - but such has never entered the heart or mind of God!

You obviously don’t know what I believe, so you assume that I am saying Jeremiah is calling it ‘hell’ or any other such thing and that Gehenna is a metaphor for what happens after death. So please don’t jump to conclusions, because it makes it useless to talk about things because I made it VERY clear what I see Scripture uses Gehenna as.

So, let us paraphrase here, so we can see if there is any listening done on your part.

What do you think, I believe Gehenna is?

[Sherman]

I hadn’t thought of this previously, but it is amazing that the Pharisees would use the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gehenna) as a metaphor of punishment considering that God inspired Jeremiah to say that sacrificing, burning to death, one’s sons and daughters in such a place Never entered the mind of God, and in fact was “Detestable” to Him. They were one twisted bunch of hypocrites. But of course, the traditional doctrine of Hell has God burning those created in His image, His children, burning them forever or until they are annihilated - but such has never entered the heart or mind of God!

You obviously don’t know what I believe, so you assume that I am saying Jeremiah is calling it ‘hell’ or any other such thing and that Gehenna is a metaphor for what happens after death. So please don’t jump to conclusions, because it makes it useless to talk about things because I made it VERY clear what I see Scripture uses Gehenna as.

So, let us paraphrase here, so we can see if there is any listening done on your part.

What do you think, I believe Gehenna is?

In the above quote I was simply noting what the Pharisees taught, and did not mean to imply that is what you believe. I do not speculate as to what you believe concerning Gehenna; and it would be useless for me to do so. But of course you’re welcome to share what you believe and why you believe it.

[AUniversalist]

I hadn’t thought of this previously, but it is amazing that the Pharisees would use the Valley of Ben Hinnom (Gehenna) as a metaphor of punishment considering that God inspired Jeremiah to say that sacrificing, burning to death, one’s sons and daughters in such a place Never entered the mind of God, and in fact was “Detestable” to Him. They were one twisted bunch of hypocrites. But of course, the traditional doctrine of Hell has God burning those created in His image, His children, burning them forever or until they are annihilated - but such has never entered the heart or mind of God!

You obviously don’t know what I believe, so you assume that I am saying Jeremiah is calling it ‘hell’ or any other such thing and that Gehenna is a metaphor for what happens after death. So please don’t jump to conclusions, because it makes it useless to talk about things because I made it VERY clear what I see Scripture uses Gehenna as.

So, let us paraphrase here, so we can see if there is any listening done on your part.

What do you think, I believe Gehenna is?

In the above quote I was simply noting what the Pharisees taught, and did not mean to imply that is what you believe. I do not speculate as to what you believe concerning Gehenna; and it would be useless for me to do so. But of course you’re welcome to share what you believe and why you believe it.

You did speculate in your answer with assumptive reasoning in your answer. If you still don’t know what I think Gehenna is, you are not listening, so you are the one who is LACKING in discussing this topic. I have been all but fair, but your are not being fair in this discussion. It is one of the vital parts of being in a discussion is to listen, are you listening?

It isn’t a metaphor for a pattern in which God will punish His Children. It was a JUDGMENT AGAINST JUDAH AND JERUSALEM that because they sacrificed their children to other gods, and the truth perished on their lips. Those Pharisee’s were the subject of the Judgment which was coming. King Josiah desecrated the valley, making sure that it served as a sign of God’s judgment against Judah and Jerusalem.

So, what was the Judgment against Judah and Jerusalem? It was JESUS CHRIST.

Isaiah 28:13-19 [Because they didn’t listen to God and made His Words, 'do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule, little here and little there] So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there— so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured.

Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers [Judah] who rule this people in Jerusalem. You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death, with the grave we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding place.”

So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:“See, I lay a stone in Zion,a tested stone,a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed. I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plumb line; hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie, and water will overflow your hiding place. Your covenant with death will be annulled your agreement with the grave will not stand. When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it. As often as it comes it will carry you away; morning after morning, by day and by night, it will sweep through.” The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror [to those it was intended].

When did this happen?

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

[Sherman]

Hi Craig, you posted this under the Mt.25.46 thread, but I thought I’d respond to it here being it speaks of Gehenna.

You are correct in that in the OT Gehenna was not used as a metaphor of personal judgment. But in the literary context of Jesus’ use of Gehenna in the Gospels, Jesus is not speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem or the Judgment of God against the Jewish people. He is warning of individual personal judgment. Metaphors can be used to illustrate various concepts. In both of these cases, Gehenna is a metaphor of judgment; the literary context determines what is being judged.

Jesus was speaking of of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Judgment of God against the Jewish people. They are a grouping of individuals. Someone here is not seeing the forest from the trees and the trees from the forest, and I know it isn’t me. I have done as much or more research on this subject, so don’t think you are talking to some layman. I have shown you continually, that NOWHERE in Scripture was Gehenna EVER referenced as remedial, but it’s affects is what brought reconciliation and salvation to the entire world.

There really is no need to make this an adversarial discussion. Certainly we can discuss our differing understandings of scripture respectfully. Concerning how much research you’ve done and whether or not you’re a “layman”, I have made no speculation. Concerning Gehenna being remedial, you’re correct in that such is not specifically stated in scripture. As I’ve shared, I’ve come to believe that it was based on quotes from Rabbis during the time of Christ, the cultural context.

The problem comes with your ‘Rabbi’ friends tell you it is, but I have my “Rabbi” friends who tell me it does not. I can go through quotes from Ignatius, Iraenius, Justin, Polycarp, Tertullian and show where they demonstrate Gehenna was most definitely not a metaphor for remedial punishment. But whatever these men believed 200 years after the fact doesn’t mean they understood what it meant when Jesus said it. So in order to know what Gehenna is, you need to actually read what it is in Scripture before you EVEN come up with a single conclusion of what it meant.

I’m sad to say that I don’t have any “Rabbi friends”. I’m glad you do. As to quotes of Shammai and Hillel that have led me to believe that Gehenna spoke of Remedial Punishment to the 1st Century Jew, Shammai and Hillel were the President and Head of the Sanhedrin just prior to Christ. Their teachings were foundational for the Pharisees during the time of Christ.

Gehenna was the judgment against Jerusalem and Judah, clearly stated by Jeremiah and Isaiah. It specifically says that this valley would be known as the Valley of Slaughter, a blight against the apostate Hebrews who sacrificed their children to Molech and Baal, something God did not have in mind and something God did not command. It is not a place of eternal torment, nor is it a place afterdeath punishment. It was a SYMBOL of a coming judgment in which the plans of Jerusalem and Judah (the Jews) would not succeed. Those who are called sons of Gehenna, are children of those apostates participating in the practices of their forefathers.

Matthew 23:15, 23-31, 36-38 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of Gehenna as you are.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of Gehenna! Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate.

Jeremiah 7:23-29, 32-33
I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. From the time your forefathers left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their forefathers.’

"When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer. Therefore say to them, 'This is the nation that has not obeyed the LORD its God or responded to correction. Truth has perished; it has vanished from their lips. Cut off your hair and throw it away; take up a lament on the barren heights, for the LORD has rejected and abandoned this generation that is under his wrath.

So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.

Everything Jesus said was referencing Jeremiah’s and Isaiah’s judgment. Understanding history, it was in that generation that Jeruslaem and Judah’s plans were foiled, the Temple was destroyed and the fires of Gehenna were put out. The reason why the fires of Gehenna were put out was because there was no more need of a symbol of judgment that had already come to pass, the people scattered and have not been the same ever since. There is a twist however, of the what the type and shadow of Gehenna is and was which I can talk about later.

Jeremiah did prophecy the destruction of Jerusalem and Judah’s captivity to Babylon. This was fulfilled in 588 B.C. if I remember correctly.

Jesus warns of Gehenna in your above quotes which I address in a moment, but He also warns of Gehenna in the following passages, in each of which Jesus is speaking to individuals, and is not speaking of Jerusalem.

Mt. 5.22
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.

Mt.5.27-30
"You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into Gehenna.

Mt.10.28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Mt.18.9
"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of Gehenna.

Mk.9.43-49
"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into Gehenna. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna, where
" ‘their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Luke 12.5
4 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Now let’s look at the Mt.23 passage.

Matthew 23:15, 23-31, 36-38 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of Gehenna as you are.

Notice that this is not a warning of any type of punishment. Rather it was a declaration of them being unclean, just like Gehenna is unclean.

Mt. 23:29-33
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of Gehenna! Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

Notice that Jesus is addressing specifically the Pharisees, and is not yet addressing Jerusalem as a whole. He is warning them of judgment to come for them.

Mt.23:36-38
"I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate.

And finally, the Lord speaks of judgment against Jerusalem, though he does not specifically mention Gehenna. So, are the previous verses in Mt.23 where Jesus is denouncing the Pharisess to be taken as Him speaking against all of Jersusalem, or is the pronouncement of judgment against Jerusalem the climatic conclusion of the passage? I believe it is the later.

But of course, even if one interprets Jesus’ use of Gehenna in Mt.23 to be speaking of judgment against Jerusalem, that does not take into consideration the six other passages where Jesus is addressing individuals and not speaking of Jerusalem.

So to me, the literary context of these passages lean heavily towards interpreting Gehenna as individual judgment, and not as just judgment against Jerusalem. Though of course, even Jerusalem’s Judgment was Remedial in nature. Though Jerusalem was judged in 588 B.C., it was remedial in nature, with the purpose of eventual good for the Jewish people. They fell though again into sin and rejecting God, were destroyed again in 70 A.D. Though it was rebuilt and the Jewish people live there today, which many believers take as a sign of the end of times. Anyhow, even these destructions of Jerusalem are meant to be remedial, especially the destruction Jeremiah predicted for he also predicted their return to Jersualem after being punished as needed.

[Sherman]

In the above quote I was simply noting what the Pharisees taught, and did not mean to imply that is what you believe. I do not speculate as to what you believe concerning Gehenna; and it would be useless for me to do so. But of course you’re welcome to share what you believe and why you believe it.

You did speculate in your answer with assumptive reasoning in your answer. If you still don’t know what I think Gehenna is, you are not listening, so you are the one who is LACKING in discussing this topic. I have been all but fair, but your are not being fair in this discussion. It is one of the vital parts of being in a discussion is to listen, are you listening?

Easy Craig, there is no need to get hot under the collar about this. I don’t know what I’ve done to offend you. I realize you believe Gehenna spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem. You made that clear in the post I just responded to. Maybe there’s some confussion here because of the two threads. Let’s do limit discussion on Gehenna to this thread. As to what you believe concerning judgment to come, I don’t know. If you explained that in this thread or the Mt.25.46 thread, I might have missed it but it surely wasn’t intentional or meant to be disrespectful in any way.

It isn’t a metaphor for a pattern in which God will punish His Children. It was a JUDGMENT AGAINST JUDAH AND JERUSALEM that because they sacrificed their children to other gods, and the truth perished on their lips. Those Pharisee’s were the subject of the Judgment which was coming. King Josiah desecrated the valley, making sure that it served as a sign of God’s judgment against Judah and Jerusalem.

So, what was the Judgment against Judah and Jerusalem? It was JESUS CHRIST.

Isaiah 28:13-19 [Because they didn’t listen to God and made His Words, 'do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule, little here and little there] So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there— so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured.

Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers [Judah] who rule this people in Jerusalem. You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death, with the grave we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding place.”

So this is what the Sovereign LORD says:“See, I lay a stone in Zion,a tested stone,a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed. I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plumb line; hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie, and water will overflow your hiding place. Your covenant with death will be annulled your agreement with the grave will not stand. When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it. As often as it comes it will carry you away; morning after morning, by day and by night, it will sweep through.” The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror [to those it was intended].

When did this happen?

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Mt. 23 could possibly be interpreted that way, but that does not correctly fit the other 6 passages where Jesus warns of Gehenna. And as I pointed out, event the use of Gehenna in Mt. 23 can very well be interpreted as idividual judgment, with a climax in the passage of a judgment against Jerusalem.

[AUniversalist]

Everything written in the Old Covenant was a shadow of things to come in Christ Jesus. Not understanding this, is the tragedy of your understanding.

[stellar_renegade]

Everything written in the Old Covenant was a shadow of things to come in Christ Jesus. Not understanding this, is the tragedy of your understanding.

What about the subject matter causes you to feel the need to be so insulting?

[AUniversalist]

Everything written in the Old Covenant was a shadow of things to come in Christ Jesus. Not understanding this, is the tragedy of your understanding.

What about the subject matter causes you to feel the need to be so insulting?

I stated the obvious. Why would Jesus quote Jeremiah concerning Gehenna, if Gehenna had came to pass hundreds of years earlier? If Sherman wants respect, he should also respect those who have done the research on this subject as well and address those points, his research is flawed by the reliance of his particular Rabbi friends, since as I stated and it can be researched, not all Rabbi’s agree with Sherman’s conclusion in the first place.

I apologize if my impatience and feelings of being disrespected is insulting, however I do have a thick skin and I find intellectual dishonest in Sherman’s responses concerning Gehenna.

I love Sherman’s view on marriage and divorce because that is accurate.

[Sherman]

Craig,

I believe it is much better to simply present why you believe as you do, and why you do not believe as another does, than to make useless statements of judgment about another person or their belief. Expressing a negative personal opinion of a person’s beliefs or level of knowledge on any subject is useless and only generates strife. And it certainly doesn’t encourage anyone to seriously consider why you believe, even if you are right; except of course for those who already believe as you do and then they might feel good about the negative remark.

As to my “Rabbi friends”, I do not know Rabbi Shammai or Hillel, they died some 2000 years ago. Of course, you are welcome to disregard any of the information I’ve presented, but disparaging remarks do absolutely no good in helping educate anyone concerning your beliefs. And it sure does make it difficult to seriously consider any information you do present.

[AUniversalist]

Craig,

I believe it is much better to simply present why you believe as you do, and why you do not believe as another does, than to make useless statements of judgment about another person or their belief. Expressing a negative personal opinion of a person’s beliefs or level of knowledge on any subject is useless and only generates strife. And it certainly doesn’t encourage anyone to seriously consider why you believe, even if you are right; except of course for those who already believe as you do and then they might feel good about the negative remark.

As to my “Rabbi friends”, I do not know Rabbi Shammai or Hillel, they died some 2000 years ago. Of course, you are welcome to disregard any of the information I’ve presented, but disparaging remarks do absolutely no good in helping educate anyone concerning your beliefs. And it sure does make it difficult to seriously consider any information you do present.

#1. You weren’t seriously considering any information I presented to begin, as I demonstrated repeatedly. Communication requires listening, and you admit to not listen. I do not appreciate your fallacy.

#2. I am not educating anyone on my belief, so that makes it really easy.

[Aaron]

Hi Sherman,

While I have appreciated your contribution to this thread (and regret the unnecessary “heat” that Craig has brought to the discussion ), I can’t say I find your understanding of Gehenna very compelling. So far, it seems that your primary arguments for understanding Gehenna as a metaphor for purgatorial punishment/judgment (as opposed to a metaphor for national judgment against Israel, which is my view) are, in a nutshell, as follows:

1. Rabbinical thought in Christ’s day (specifically that of Rabbis Shammai and Hillel) is that Gehenna was a place of remedial, purgatorial punishment in another state of existence (for some, at least!).

2. In most (all?) of the verses where Christ refers to Gehenna, he “is speaking to individuals, and is not speaking of Jerusalem” (your words).

I’ll address the second argument first, and tackle the other one after you’ve responded to this post. But in anticipation of it, could you please respond to the following? First, could you please provide all direct quotes you have from specific Jews (such as Shammai and Hillel or any other Jewish contemporaries of Christ, like Josephus or Philo) or first-century Jewish works (or earlier) in which your understanding of Gehenna is affirmed? Second, assuming Gehenna was used by Jewish rabbis prior to or during Christ’s day as a metaphor for purgatorial punishment in a future state of existence (and I’m not saying it wasn’t), do you think Christ sanctioned everything that these Jews believed and taught about it when he spoke of Gehenna during his ministry? I’ll have more to say on this later.

Now, for argument number two: I believe it is simply question-begging to assert that when Christ spoke to individuals about Gehenna he was “not speaking of Jerusalem.” If (as I and others have argued elsewhere on this forum) Gehenna was employed by Christ as an emblem or metaphor for Jerusalem’s overthrow, then he most certainly was “speaking of Jerusalem” when he used the word when speaking to individuals (individuals who, I need not remind you, were all Jewish). There would have been no need to even mention “Jerusalem” to his listeners if the word “Gehenna” was intended to convey to them the violent overthrow of this very city. But do we have *inspired precedent * for understanding Gehenna as such a metaphor? To deny this one would have to disregard an entire chapter from the book of Jeremiah. But where is the *inspired precedent * for understanding Gehenna as a metaphor for remedial punishment for both Jews and Gentiles beyond this mortal lifetime in another state of existence? If there was any I’m sure you would have made full use of it in defense of your understanding of Gehenna, for (as I hope you would affirm) a single inspired passage in Scripture is worth more than a library’s worth of books written by uninspired men, whether they be rabbis or so-called “church fathers” (but more on that later, when I address your first and primary argument).

Second, the assumption behind your argument appears to be that, in order for Jesus to have had a national judgment in view, he could not have addressed individuals or spoken of individuals as being punished, or as being in danger of being punished. But is this assumption not mistaken? Why couldn’t have Jesus warned and rebuked individuals who, along with their family, friends and acquaintances, were exposed to such a judgment? And, as I believe Craig has already pointed out, it should be kept in mind that there would be no nations if it weren’t for the individuals who constitute them. A national judgment is, at the very least, a judgment upon the individual citizens who dwell in and populate a nation. Of course, a national judgment almost inevitably entails more than this (e.g., the ransacking and destruction of homes/private property, and of important religious and civil buildings and institutions), but the suffering, distress and sorrow endured by the individuals of the nation being judged is what makes a national judgment so tragic and awful. It is an individual’s concern for their own personal welfare, and the welfare of those they love, that would undoubtedly motivate them to escape such a judgment if it were at all possible (assuming they were given warning in advance and took the warning seriously). So why wouldn’t Jesus have spoken to and about individuals when referring to a judgment that was soon to befall a nation, which is made up of individuals? Why wouldn’t Jesus have spoken to and about individuals when referring to a judgment that concerned the very lives of individuals? Would it not make sense for Christ to warn the individuals who had left everything to follow him of the fate that awaited those individuals who displayed the kind of character that revealed a lack of devotion to him as Lord (Mt. 5:22, 27-30) and who did not take seriously the cost of discipleship (Mt 18:8-9)? Not only would this make sense, it’s something we would expect him to do. There’s nothing in any of these verses that is in any way inconsistent with the idea that Christ employed Gehenna as a metaphor for a judgment upon the nation of Israel - that is, a judgment that was soon to fall upon the individuals of that first-century generation of Jews (whether they lived in Jerusalem or not - for keep in mind that many of the Jews who perished at this time were not even Jerusalem locals, but were attending the great Passover feast).

Now, a passage that I think is relevant to the discussion is from Luke 13. In v. 1 we read that, “There were present at that season some who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.” Jesus then warns these Jewish individuals with the following solemn words: “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” When Jesus says they would “likewise perish” it is evident he had some sort of temporal disaster in view (it’s certainly not obvious he was speaking about some place of purgatory in another state existence, of which the OT says nothing about). Well what could Jesus possibly have had in mind if not the coming judgment upon their nation, in which more than a million Jews perished, and thousands more exiled? And was this not something that deeply concerned the welfare of individuals?

Commenting on Matt 23:29-33, you say: “Notice that Jesus is addressing specifically the Pharisees, and is not yet addressing Jerusalem as a whole. He is warning them of judgment to come for them.” But there is not a single good reason that I can think of why Jesus would even have had to “address Jerusalem as a whole” in order for Gehenna to be understood in this passage as a metaphor for national judgment upon Israel - especially if the word was already meant to convey that meaning to those to whom he spoke (and if they were at all familiar with Jeremiah 19, I submit that it should have; and if it didn’t, it could only be because of lack of familiarity with their own inspired Scriptures). And was not the overthrow of their nation a future “judgment to come” that was “for them?” I honestly don’t know how anyone could deny this. The fact is this: during the earthly ministry of Christ (as well as that of his apostles), the temporal fates of countless Jewish individuals were being decided as individuals either remained in hardened unbelief concerning Jesus, or embraced him as their Messiah and took seriously what he had to say about the future of their nation. Those Jews who heeded his warnings and rebukes (whether spoken directly to them by Christ or not) were able to escape the coming tribulation that loomed on the horizon when the opportune time came for them to flee (Mt 24:15-21, etc.). Even those believers who passed away before the time came when “all the righteous blood shed on the earth” came upon that generation (Mt 23:35-36) would still have had a powerful influence on their loved ones and acquaintances, so as to save some of them from this calamity. In contrast, all who rejected Christ and failed to heed his words to flee the land when God gave them the opportunity to do so were ultimately trapped within their beloved capital city (Luke 19:41-44) and perished in the great judgment of their nation.

Now, let’s say (for the sake of argument) that Christ did, in fact, understand Gehenna to be a metaphor for national judgment against Israel. I’m very curious as to know what you would have had Jesus say to the first-century Jewish individuals to whom he spoke, whether they were his disciples and in need of warning, instruction and guidance (Mt. 5:22, 27-30; 10:28; 18:8-9; Mk 9:43-49; Luke 12:4-7) or the unbelieving religious elite of the day, whose hardened hearts had made it possible for them to receive anything but stern rebuke (Mt. 23:15, 23-31, 36-38).

[AUniversalist]

There was no unnecessary heat, only pressure to keep honest, his constant use of fallacy is disappointing. I look forward to Sherman’s response to your challenge.

[stellar_renegade]

Actually, I don’t find it hard to entertain an idea, regardless of attitude. I thought Student had some good points, though I disagree. But, still.

Everything written in the Old Covenant was a shadow of things to come in Christ Jesus. Not understanding this, is the tragedy of your understanding.

What about the subject matter causes you to feel the need to be so insulting?

I stated the obvious. Why would Jesus quote Jeremiah concerning Gehenna, if Gehenna had came to pass hundreds of years earlier? If Sherman wants respect, he should also respect those who have done the research on this subject as well and address those points, his research is flawed by the reliance of his particular Rabbi friends, since as I stated and it can be researched, not all Rabbi’s agree with Sherman’s conclusion in the first place.

Are you trying to say that if he wants respect he should agree with you? Because that really is what it sounds like. He did address your points, I followed the conversation. I’m sorry you feel like his responses are flawed enough to deserve verbal abuse.

I apologize if my impatience and feelings of being disrespected is insulting, however I do have a thick skin and I find intellectual dishonest in Sherman’s responses concerning Gehenna.

You have a thick skin, even though you have unwarranted feelings of disrespect? I don’t see where Sherman has disrespected you once in this thread, however you’ve thrown out several comments unprovoked. And impatience about what? We have a lot of time to discuss these things. You want him to just agree with you right away?

Based on this activity, I don’t look forward to discussing anything with you anytime soon. I’m not even sure why you’re trying to discuss anything if you’re not interested in educating anyone on your beliefs in the first place…

[AUniversalist]

Based on this activity, I don’t look forward to discussing anything with you anytime soon. I’m not even sure why you’re trying to discuss anything if you’re not interested in educating anyone on your beliefs in the first place…

I am not trying to educate anyone on my beliefs, what I believe is inconsequential. What the Truth is, is what is the point of discussing anything.

I don’t see where Sherman has disrespected you once in this thread, however you’ve thrown out several comments unprovoked.

Above this, if I was to educate him on my beliefs, it would be useless because he admitted he was not listening, and did not care to paraphrase what I said for understanding prior to making his response. As a result, he refuted his own made up imagination of what I said, and not what I said. That is how he disrespects me. I do not care for fallacy, nor do I care for people who want to make issues of nothing but what they think is going on and assign it to me. You think he responded to my points, but he didn’t. He had this presumption of what I saying instead of actually understanding what I was saying.