God does not create, commit, or allow evil!

[Hermano]

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

God doesn’t create evil:

During The Creation Week, we read in Genesis 1:10-31 the phrase, “And God saw that it was good,” six times. I argue that EVERYTHING that was created, was created good during that First Week—which would include the archangel Lucifer. However, we know that by the beginning of chapter 3 he had fallen, because there we read how he tempted Eve to sin; Lucifer was the first sinner.

And we know that Satan, the accuser, became the author of death, NOT GOD. Hebrews 2:14. Death is God’s stated enemy, which will be completely eradicated in the future. 1 Cor. 15:26. (And that eradication must also include the “second death,” the lake of fire.)

God doesn’t commit evil:

In another discussion, I argued that God does not commit evil. The writers of Scripture were mediators of God’s communications, and they, like us, ‘saw through a glass, darkly.’ 1 Cor. 13:12. The Bible is only part of a never-ending, progressive revelation of the goodness of God. The Scriptures must be read through the lens of love; any passage that indicates God approved or ordered evil must be properly discerned by the Spirit, who gives life, and not the letter, which kills. 2 Cor. 3:6. God always, only, overcomes evil with good. He commands us to love our enemies, and to likewise overcome evil with good. Rom. 12:21; Mat. 5:44, Luke 6:25, 35.

God doesn’t allow evil:

But many say,* "God may not commit evil, but He certainly allows it.”* God is assuredly omnipotent, but only within the context of His nature. He is not all-powerfully coercive or violent or cruel. He is unipolar in nature: agape love.

“God has disallowed all evil through the finished work of Jesus.” Richard Murray.

God is always an active “disallower" and disabler of evil. God’s only posture toward evil is to disallow it on every level.

The Bible teaches that “the life is in the blood.” Leviticus 17:11. Reading the Exodus story allegorically, the blood of the Passover lamb (a symbol of the blood/life of Christ) had to be APPLIED to their doors to keep the death angel from entering their households and oppressing their lives with destructions. As Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 313 – 386 AD) indicated, just as Moses was sent by God into Egypt to lead out the persecuted Jews to the promised land—through the blood of lambs on the doorposts and lintels, so the Blood of Jesus, the spotless lamb, is our sanctuary from evil.

The cross is God’s complete disallowance of all evil, for all time—past, present, and future.

The life is in the blood. Jesus came that we might have life, abundant life, His very own divine life transfused into all our beings, all in all.

Jesus’ blood is not about transgression, but about transfusion. Richard Murray.

To Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrews 12:24.

Righteous ABEL’S blood cried out, “Vengeance! Vengeance!” after his brother Cain murdered him (Genesis 4:8–11). BUT the eternal blood of Jesus speaks better things. JESUS’ blood cries out “forgiveness, peace, protection, provision, success, righteousness, healing,” and much more! His blood will never lose its power.

Beloved, “see that you do not refuse Him who speaks.” Hebrews 12:25. See that you keep hearing the voice of grace. (Adapted from Joseph Prince.)

In conclusion, we must proclaim and apply the blood of Jesus both individually and corporately, as His body and bride. We Christians are the firstfruits of all that God created (James 1:8), but we’re not the only fruits! All creation will follow us, sooner or later—as we see God’s nature, and our mission, more clearly, and take authority to proclaim and command Christ’s life. Step by step, the lesser reality of the principles of this world must be submitted to the greater reality of the finished work of Jesus.

Our words have power. Isaac prophetically blessed Jacob (disguised as Esau) this way:

May God give you heaven’s dew and earth’s richness— an abundance of grain and new wine.

May nations serve you and peoples bow down to you. Be lord over your brothers, and may the sons of your mother bow down to you. May those who curse you be cursed and those who bless you be blessed. Gen. 27:28.

How much more should we, post-cross, who know that God is ONLY love, be using the keys of the kingdom to bind and cast out death, and to imperatively proclaim and loose life? Let’s not allow the enemy to victimize and defraud us, or our neighbors, of our blood-bought inheritance, with his seductive lies. “Let us not neglect so great a salvation.”

(I adapted my discussion above from things I have written previously; from Joseph Prince; and most especially from Richard Murray–from whom I freely lifted .)

Blessings

[Hermano]

On a related note, Prince writes:

When God created man, He gave man authority to have dominion over everything on earth (Genesis 1:26). But when man sinned, he gave this authority to Satan. And when man’s authority was transferred to Satan, Satan brought in diseases, poverty, strife, bitterness, pain, loss and death. He messed up everything on earth for man.

“Pastor Prince, why didn’t God just grab the devil by the neck and throw him out of the garden?”

God did not do that because He is a judicial God. It was a man who gave away his authority to Satan. So it had to be a man who would legally take it back. And God has done this through a Man. His name is Jesus!

By His death on the cross, Jesus righteously restored all that man had lost. That is why, just before He went back to heaven, He said, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore…” Those words tell us that He has transferred His authority to us. The same authority that He had over the storm, evil spirits, sicknesses, diseases and even death is now ours to use.

And, I might add, Jesus is the brains of the operation, and lives inside us:
*

For, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” **BUT **

we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor. 2:16*

[anon12438761]

A lot to think about, Hermano, I’ll try to get my mind around it.

[maintenanceman]

A lot to think about, Hermano, I’ll try to get my mind around it.

Looking forward to hear where all of you land on this.

Peace
Chad

[steve7150]

I would like to blame Satan for the evil or at least killing attributed to God but Jesus doesn’t seem to suggest this in any of his OT references.

[Hermano]

I would like to blame Satan for the evil or at least killing attributed to God but Jesus doesn’t seem to suggest this in any of his OT references.

I would have to respectfully disagree:

“He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.” John 8:44.

Please consider, “SATAN: Old Testament Servant Angel or New Testament Cosmic Rebel?” by Richard Murray, and my earlier post, “Is God Violent, Or Nonviolent?” for more examples.

Blessings.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Just a note here. Hermano’s main thesis is that “God does not create, commit, or allow evil!”. The Protestant site Got Questions (which is really based upon Calvinism), does not agree with the **not **allow part:

Did God create evil?

First this sentence, from their longer answer:

God did not create evil, but He does allow evil.

And I believe that answer would apply, to most (if not all) mainline Protestant, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches

And the answer at Why Does God Allow Evil and Suffering? (**not **a Got Questions site), does distinguish between physical and moral evil.

Now for the Got Questions full answer:

Answer: At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good. One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.

Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

As finite human beings, we can never fully understand an infinite God (Romans 11:33-34). Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from a holy, eternal perspective. We look at things from a sinful, earthly, and temporal perspective. Why did God put man on earth knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn’t He just create us all and leave us in heaven where we would be perfect and without suffering? These questions cannot be adequately answered this side of eternity. What we can know is whatever God does is holy and perfect and ultimately will glorify Him. God allowed for the possibility of evil in order to give us a true choice in regards to whether we worship Him. God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will.

Got Questions continues to answer the question at:

Why does God allow evil?

The Bible describes God as holy (Isaiah 6:3), righteous (Psalm 7:11), just (Deuteronomy 32:4), and sovereign (Daniel 4:17-25). These attributes tell us the following about God: (1) God is capable of preventing evil, and (2) God desires to rid the universe of evil. So, if both of these are true, why does God allow evil? If God has the power to prevent evil and desires to prevent evil, why does He still allow evil? Perhaps a practical way to look at this question would be to consider some alternative ways people might have God run the world:

1. God could change everyone’s personality so that they cannot sin. This would also mean that we would not have a free will. We would not be able to choose right or wrong because we would be “programmed” to only do right. Had God chosen to do this, there would be no meaningful relationships between Him and His creation.

Instead, God made Adam and Eve innocent but with the ability to choose good or evil. Because of this, they could respond to His love and trust Him or choose to disobey. They chose to disobey. Because we live in a real world where we can choose our actions but not their consequences, their sin affected those who came after them (us). Similarly, our decisions to sin have an impact on us and those around us and those who will come after us.

2. God could compensate for people’s evil actions through supernatural intervention 100 percent of the time. God would stop a drunk driver from causing an automobile accident. God would stop a lazy construction worker from doing a substandard job on a house that would later cause grief to the homeowners. God would stop a father who is addicted to drugs or alcohol from doing any harm to his wife, children, or extended family. God would stop gunmen from robbing convenience stores. God would stop high school bullies from tormenting the brainy kids. God would stop thieves from shoplifting. And, yes, God would stop terrorists from flying airplanes into buildings.

While this solution sounds attractive, it would lose its attractiveness as soon as God’s intervention infringed on something we wanted to do. We want God to prevent horribly evil actions, but we are willing to let “lesser-evil” actions slide—not realizing that those “lesser-evil” actions are what usually lead to the “greater-evil” actions. Should God only stop actual sexual affairs, or should He also block our access to pornography or end any inappropriate, but not yet sexual, relationships? Should God stop “true” thieves, or should He also stop us from cheating on our taxes? Should God only stop murder, or should He also stop the “lesser-evil” actions done to people that lead them to commit murder? Should God only stop acts of terrorism, or should He also stop the indoctrination that transformed a person into a terrorist?

3. Another choice would be for God to judge and remove those who choose to commit evil acts. The problem with this possibility is that there would be no one left, for God would have to remove us all. We all sin and commit evil acts (Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8). While some people are more evil than others, where would God draw the line? Ultimately, all evil causes harm to others.

Instead of these options, God has chosen to create a “real” world in which real choices have real consequences. In this real world of ours, our actions affect others. Because of Adam’s choice to sin, the world now lives under the curse, and we are all born with a sin nature (Romans 5:12). There will one day come a time when God will judge the sin in this world and make all things new, but He is purposely “delaying” in order to allow more time for people to repent so that He will not need to condemn them (2 Peter 3:9). Until then, He IS concerned about evil. When He created the Old Testament laws, the goal was to discourage and punish evil. He judges nations and rulers who disregard justice and pursue evil. Likewise, in the New Testament, God states that it is the government’s responsibility to provide justice in order to protect the innocent from evil (Romans 13). He also promises severe consequences for those who commit evil acts, especially against the “innocent” (Mark 9:36-42).

In summary, we live in a real world where our good and evil actions have direct consequences and indirect consequences upon us and those around us. God’s desire is that for all of our sakes we would obey Him that it might be well with us (Deuteronomy 5:29). Instead, what happens is that we choose our own way, and then we blame God for not doing anything about it. Such is the heart of sinful man. But Jesus came to change men’s hearts through the power of the Holy Spirit, and He does this for those who will turn from evil and call on Him to save them from their sin and its consequences (2 Corinthians 5:17). God does prevent and restrain some acts of evil. This world would be MUCH WORSE were not God restraining evil. At the same time, God has given us the ability to choose good and evil, and when we choose evil, He allows us, and those around us, to suffer the consequences of evil. Rather than blaming God and questioning God on why He does not prevent all evil, we should be about the business of proclaiming the cure for evil and its consequences—Jesus Christ!

[St_Michael]

This contradicts the Bible and undercuts the hope it’s trying to create. In Job when Satan gets permission to destroy Jobs family and make Job sick Job declares:

The Lord has given and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

To which the writer explains:

In all this Job did not sin with his lips

Ultimately God is responsible in that he permitted evil to destroy. But Satan did the destroying. God doesn’t directly cause evil but permits it for morally justifiable reasons. One act two intentions. God’s holy intentions are good man’s intentions are evil. We also see this at the cross. According to Greg Boyd:

Along the same line, in the Christus Victor view, Jesus was afflicted by the Father not in the sense that the Father’s rage burned directly towards His Son, but in the sense that God allowed evil agents to have their way with Him for a greater good. This is how God’s wrath was usually expressed towards Israel In the Old Testament (Judges 2:11-19; Isaiah 10:5-6) It’s just that with Jesus, the greater good was not to teach Jesus obedience, as it usually was with Israel in the Old Testament. Instead, God the Son, bore the Father’s wrath, expressed through the powers, for the greater good of demonstrating God’s righteousness against the powers and sin (Romans 3:25) while defeating the powers and setting humans free from their oppression.

Nonetheless God is in control. He promises to work everything together for my good because I love Him. And I love Him because He first loved me in Christ’s suffering death and resurrection. The past is wiped out and my future is secure. I’m free to live in the present moment. I have hope. And hope is the same as union. And it’s not only Romans 8 that tells us God is in control. It’s the Testimony of scripture:

And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. Deut. - 30:6

I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. - Job 42:2

Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand. - Proverbs 19:21

A man’s steps are from the Lord; how then can man understand his way? - Proverbs 20:24

The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will. - Proverbs 21:1

declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it. - Isaiah 46:10-11

I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart. - Jeremiah 24:7

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?” - Daniel 4:35

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. - John 6:44

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. - Romans 9-16

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” - Romans 9:19

for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. - Revelation 17:17

The paradox of faith means holding these two things in tension: the infinite, holy love and wisdom of God and circumstances that seem to be calling Him evil. At times it doesn’t seem possible that God could allow bad things to happen. This is where I lean into His holiness and trust in His infinite love and wisdom. An infinitely wise and holy God always has justifiable reasons for permitting suffering. I can rest assured that He works all things together for my good in my life because I love Him. In bad times I can trust that He is in control and therefore He will bring good out of the evil situation. If an unbeliever starts with the facts of suffering then they will carry a lot of weight. But for those of us who have tasted the holy love of God through experience or Biblical revelation, we will know that God must have justifiable reasons for permitting evil and suffering even if we can’t say at the moment what they are. We don’t see into the future or all of reality like God does. We don’t have infinite wisdom and knowledge like God does. We don’t know God’s sovereign will until it come to pass. I can affirm with certainty that God knows the justifiable reasons for suffering and evil though. God is holy, infinite in wisdom, infinite in knowledge and sees all of reality in the past, present and future. Such a God ALWAYS has justifiable reasons for ALL suffering even if we do not know it. We do not always know why because we are finite and limited in our knowledge. Relationships are about trust and God wants us to trust Him and do mercy and justice. I can trust Him even when I don’t know why because I know He does. I don’t try to read the infinitely complex mind of God when evil and suffering come. I am moved to help.

[St_Michael]

There are ways we are like God and ways we are not. We cannot be like God in every way. Knowing the Creator creature distinctions should produce a measure of humility in us.

God is all-powerful - I am not

God is in control of the universe - I am not

God is self-sufficient - I am not

God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge - I am not

God is perfect - I am not

God is all knowing - I am not

God in infinitely glorious and beautiful - I am not

I trust and rely on God. His glory is the beauty of His infinite perfections. The more I glorify God like Jesus did the more glorious I become. The glory of the creature is in humility. God is all powerful. I’m powerless and depend on Him.

[Paidion]

Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good.

If this is a reference to moral evil and moral good, the statement is nonsense and easy to refute.

On the planet Mars, there is a complete absence of moral good. So according to the above quote, there must be moral evil on Mars. But in fact, there is neither moral good nor moral evil on Mars. There has to be people in order for moral good or moral evil to exist.

No—moral good and moral evil have independent existences.

Joe sees a hungry man. Here are three possible actions that Joe may take:

1. Joe buys a meal for the hungry man. This is a moral good.
2. Joe does nothing for the hungry man. He just walks on by. That would be an absence of moral good, but it wouldn’t be moral evil.
3. Joe forces the hungry man to take off his shoes. Then Joe grabs the shoes and goes home. This would be theft—a moral evil, not merely an absence of doing good to the man.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

@Paidion

@Randy

Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good.

If this is a reference to moral evil and moral good, the statement is nonsense and easy to refute.

On the planet Mars, there is a complete absence of moral good. So according to the above quote, there must be moral evil on Mars. But in fact, there is neither moral good nor moral evil on Mars. There has to be people in order for moral good or moral evil to exist.

No—moral good and moral evil have independent existences.

Joe sees a hungry man. Here are three possible actions that Joe may take:

1. Joe buys a meal for the hungry man. This is a moral good.
2. Joe does nothing for the hungry man. He just walks on by. That would be an absence of moral good, but it wouldn’t be moral evil.
3. Joe forces the hungry man to take off his shoes. Then Joe grabs the shoes and goes home. This would be theft—a moral evil, not merely an absence of doing good to the man.

Well, Paidion, it also shows that Calvinists are not always in agreement (just like universalists, etc.) - as I shall demonstrate.

In fact, this first cartoon, illustrates a universal truth. If you put 2 folks, from a particular group (i.e. theologians, philosophers, universalists, etc.), into a room - guess what? You have 3.7528 opinions and growing.

“On Mercury a day lasts 1,408 hours. Just like every Monday does on Earth.”-- Author Unknown

Let’s look at what Calvinist, Matt Slick (as contrasted to the Calvinist, Got Questions response), has to say at:

Is evil the absence of love or good?

No, evil is not the absence of good or the absence of love any more than light is the absence of darkness or a cat is the absence of dogness. Real evil, the kind that is demonic, has its own presence, its own pervasive malevolent intention. It can be experienced. It is a wickedness that can be felt. It is not just the absence of something. It is something.

The Bible has much to say about evil.

Proverbs 12:20, “Deceit is in the heart of those who devise evil, but counselors of peace have joy.”
Isaiah 32:7, “As for a rogue, his weapons are evil; He devises wicked schemes to destroy the afflicted with slander, even though the needy one speaks what is right.”
John 3:20, “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.”
Romans 1:29-30, “being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents.”
The Bible tells us that love is patient, kind, and does not remember a wrong suffered, (1 Corinthians 13:4-8). But if a person is not patient and kind, it doesn’t mean he is intentionally evil, that he seeks to deceive people (Proverbs 12:20), or that he is seeking to destroy the afflicted (Isaiah 32:7), or that he hates the light (John 3:20), or that he is full of greed, and evil, and murder, and arrogance, and disobedience, etc. (Romans 1:29-30). It does not mean he is evil. People can be apathetic, impatient, and even unkind but it doesn’t mean that they are intending to do wicked things.

In my opinion, when people say that evil is nothing more than the lack of good the same way they will say that hate is the lack of love, I consider those sentiments to be just that, sentiments. They are not biblically based and they are not well-informed. I am not seeking to be insulting. But, in a world of relativism the absolutes of good and evil are blurred to such an extent that the danger of what evil really is is lessened.

Christians need to be very wary and not succumb to the relativistic, good intentions of the nonbiblical who seek to abide in the gray area of truth. But truth is often hard to accept and very inconvenient at times. We must not consider evil to be a lack of good any more than we would say that God is a lack of evil. We should not define something by what it is not but by what it is.

[Paidion]

Randy, how do you post a video? I once knew this, but have forgotten.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Randy, how do you post a video? I once knew this, but have forgotten.

If it’s a YouTube video, you use this format, Paidion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Youtube Video

Just be sure it’s HTTP and not HTTPS format.

“A smart person knows what to say. A wise person knows whether or not to say it.”-- Author Unknown

[Paidion]

Thank you, Randy.

[LLC]

Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good.

If this is a reference to moral evil and moral good, the statement is nonsense and easy to refute.

On the planet Mars, there is a complete absence of moral good. So according to the above quote, there must be moral evil on Mars. But in fact, there is neither moral good nor moral evil on Mars. There has to be people in order for moral good or moral evil to exist.

No—moral good and moral evil have independent existences.

Joe sees a hungry man. Here are three possible actions that Joe may take:

1. Joe buys a meal for the hungry man. This is a moral good.
2. Joe does nothing for the hungry man. He just walks on by. That would be an absence of moral good, but it wouldn’t be moral evil.
3. Joe forces the hungry man to take off his shoes. Then Joe grabs the shoes and goes home. This would be theft—a moral evil, not merely an absence of doing good to the man.

As Paidion has pointed out here, in Joe’s perverted mind, he is doing a “good” thing. He gets a pair of shoes for himself without having to work and pay for them.

[Hermano]

Glory in the highest to God, and upon earth peace, among men – good will. (YLT) Luke 2:14.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world [kosmos-universe] through him. John 3:17.

God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 2 Cor. 5:19.

I think God is an unchanging Daddy of love. I realize that not everyone shares this perception of Him; but I think that anything else is either ignorance, or deception. God in Three Persons is only, ever, kind and good.

Anytime the sacred Scriptures seem to assign anything less than perfect goodness to our Creator Daddy, the human mediator was, in that instance, ‘seeing through a glass, darkly.’ The Bible is only part of a progressive revelation of the goodness of God in Christ; this revelation continues and increases forever.

I have come out of Arminianism, which believes that, through poor performance, a genuine Christian can lose his salvation, and go to a never-ending hell of torture. (And I don’t buy trying to dress it up, and saying that the people who are in hell will choose to reject God forever;* that with clear understanding* they will simply prefer to stay there…for eternity.)

Equally egregious to me is Calvinism, with its idea of limited atonement, and that God has predestined some people for (again) a never-ending torture chamber.

These, to me (finally) are evil misunderstandings about God’s true nature; people are sometimes confusing their friend, God, with their enemy, Satan. To quote Thomas Talbott:

If God could do the logically impossible, then he could deceive all Christians as an expression of his faithfulness to them or subject each of them to eternal torment as an expression of his eternal love for them.

God doesn’t deceive, or perpetuate any evil. Satan does.

I disagree with charismatic Calvinist John Piper, in the “comfort” he gives his young daughter. After a terrible bridge collapse in Minneapolis, here is his bedtime discussion concerning this “decision” of God, with Talitha (11):

…When people ‘blame’ God for something, they are angry with him, and they are saying that he has done something wrong. That’s what “blame” means: accuse somebody of wrongdoing. But you and I know that God did not do anything wrong. God always does what is wise. And you and I know that God could have held up that bridge with one hand.” Talitha said, “With his pinky.” “Yes,” I said, “with his pinky. Which means that God had a purpose for not holding up that bridge, knowing all that would happen, and he is infinitely wise in all that he wills.”

Talitha said, “Maybe he let it fall because he wanted all the people of Minneapolis to fear him.” “Yes, Talitha,” I said, “I am sure that is one of the reasons God let the bridge fall.”

I said, “You know, Talitha, that is true whether you die in a bridge collapse, or in a car accident, or from cancer, or terrorism, or old age….his people must pass through the deadly currents of suffering and death, not simply ride over them. “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you” (Isaiah 43:2). They may drown you. But I will be with you in life and death. !]

Again, where is Satan in this discussion? Where is the exhortation to resist and fight him, with spiritual weapons? Should we use our influence to set up people to be victimized and defrauded by the destroyer? Should we continue to perpetuate the idea that God actually wants bad things to happen? I say, NO! God has disallowed all evil in Christ; we must receive and apply the victory of that finished work.

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
2 Cor. 10:4-5.

Christ was fully obedient. We take thoughts captive to his obedience; to his finished work of victory over darkness and death.

God doesn’t bless us because of our obedience, but because of Christ’s obedience. We can’t earn or deserve these blessings, only freely receive, and gratefully share. But that strikes against religiosity and performance, and the “lesser reality” law of sowing and reaping.

But the “greater reality” of grace and mercy trumps the law of sowing and reaping.

Grace: getting for free what you don’t deserve, and didn’t earn.
Mercy: not getting the bad consequences of what you do deserve, and did earn.

Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:16.

As to the question of morality (good vs. evil), I identify morality with subjective religion, more than with God. There were two trees in the Garden:

-The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil—which represented the exit sign from depending on God, and following taskmaster and legalist Satan, and,
-The Tree of Life—who is Jesus, who has everything we need for life and godliness, for free.

We must each choose which tree we will live in.

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Qaz, I haven’t read that book by Brad Jersak, but I know he believes in a nonviolent God like me–although he and I may disagree about the ontology of Satan. I think he’s great. After all, he published my all-time favorite article, “SATAN: Old Testament Servant Angel or New Testament Cosmic Rebel?” by Richard Murray, on his Clarion Journal

And I really enjoyed him in Kevin Miller XI’s excellent Hellbound?, which also stars our own Robin Parry:

Christmas Blessings.

[Paidion]

Hermano, I have been reading Richard Murray’s book. I’m not very far in it, but he has given the first real solution that I have encountered to “the problem of pain” (which has been argued philosophically for ages). I have believed that God’s essence is LOVE (Heb 1:3) for a long time and "in Him is no darkness at all) (1 John 1:5). But my problem was “the problem of pain.” Here’s the way I looked at it prior to reading Murray:
In this world that have been horrific acts that have been perpetrated for ages: mental and physical torture, extremely painful forms of rape, murder, and poisoning, and many other cruelties. God usually does nothing to stop these atrocities. Since He has the power to stop them, and usually doesn’t then doesn’t this mean God is responsible for them?

Richard Murray first states there are some things God cannot do. For example, He cannot lie (Titus 1:2). So is God not omnipotent after all since He cannot lie. It depends upon how you define “omnipotent.” He cannot lie since lying is contrary to God’s character. God CANNOT do anything that is not in keeping with His character. God’s character contrary to using force to cause people to do what He wants. Therefore He cannot stop the evil acts in this world. Thus God does not ALLOW evil in any sense of the word “allow.”

I am still reading Murray’s book, and my inclination is toward this way of solving “the problem of pain” as far as human action goes. Of course, it does not solve the problem of pain that results from natural disasters such as floods, earthquakes, tsunamis, attacks by animals, etc.

[Paidion]

Ultimately God is responsible in that he permitted evil to destroy. But Satan did the destroying. God doesn’t directly cause evil but permits it for morally justifiable reasons.

How do you know this? What morally justifiable reason does God “allow” little girls to be tortured, raped, and murdered? Could God not bring about his intentions in any other way?

Nonetheless God is in control.

He usually doesn’t stop the billions of atrocities constantly occurring in the world. So in what sense is He “in control”?

He promises to work everything together for my good because I love Him.

As I see it, the “everything” in this passage does not refer to every event. Look at the context of Romans 8:28

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.For those whom he foreknew he also pre-appointed to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he pre-appointed he also called, and those whom he called he also made righteous, and those whom he made righteous, he also glorified. (Rom 8:28-30)

Paul is talking about God working together for good everything He does within the called ones—and there is a sequence to this working:

1. They are foreknown
2. They are pre-appointed
   And if they respond positively to this appointment then
3. They are made righteous.
   The result of being righteous is
4. They are glorified.

Step 4 has not yet occurred, but in God’s economy it will surely happen, and so you might as well say it has already happened.

Here is another example of this. God has put everything in subjection to man , but at present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to man"

It has been testified somewhere, “What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him? You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,putting everything in subjection under his feet.” Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. (Heb 2:6-8)

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Hermano:

I have to ask about the trailer you shared for Hellbound. I assume it’s the 2012 movie. From the Wiki description at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellbound%3F it says this:

Hellbound? is a 2012 Canadian documentary film which details the debate regarding various views about the existence and nature of hell.

And I look at IMDB, whom I use for ratings, as to whether to see a movie or not. They only rate it 6.2 out of 10 (based upon user ratings) at imdb.com/title/tt2325719/.

So here are my questions:

Have you seen the film? If so, what do you think?
Do they cover other viewpoints besides ECT, like exile, P-Zombie (Rev N.T. Wright), metaphorical, annihilation, and universalism’s purifying fire?

[St_Michael]

How do you know this? What morally justifiable reason does God “allow” little girls to be tortured, raped, and murdered? Could God not bring about his intentions in any other way?

I know it because I’ve experienced God’s love. Because of experience and divine revelation I know He has justifiable reasons. God is not in the same category as man. He alone is God. He sees all of reality past, present and future even in I don’t. Logical explanations are infinite. Especially when it comes to a being of infinite wisdom and knowledge. I simply trust God and do acts of service in mercy and justice. His sovereign will is His business alone. I’ve surrendered under the mighty hand of God just like Jesus did when He said “not my will but Yours be done” just before He went to the cross. I am nothing God is everything. God is all in all.

He usually doesn’t stop the billions of atrocities constantly occurring in the world. So in what sense is He “in control”?

He’s in control in the sense that He brings good out of evil and evil situations.

In Christ also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will ~~ Ephes. 1:11

It brings me comfort knowing that God works everything together for my good because I love Him. I have hope. No need for anxiety or worry about the future. I can live in the now.

They are foreknown

Foreknown means foreloved as in “Adam “knew” his wife Eve and had sons and daughters”

“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” ~~ Romans 8:29,30

The chain is unbreakable.

It Must Be Fate

I know that our union is surely fate
Predestined to be Your soul mate
For I am complete in union with You
A love so pure and a love so true
Forever in this holy love Divine
Your heart beats lovely with mine
Bringing me joy from love’s holy fire
You satisfy my heart’s longing desire

As a young man marries a young woman,
so will your Builder marry you;
as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride,
so will your God rejoice over you

Isaiah 62:5

At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him

That’s because you have to surrender to God. There’s three aspects to God’s will. Two of them are

1. His hidden or secret will (Sovereign).

2. His Revealed will.

People disobey His revealed will nonetheless He works it according to the counsel of His sovereign will.

“Man approaches God most nearly when he is in one sense least like God. For what can be more unlike than fullness and need, sovereignty and humility, righteousness and penitence, limitless power and a cry for help?”
― C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves