God does not create, commit, or allow evil!


Dave, my bad. Forgive me. Yes, the “slippery slope” argument does make generalizations, and you and qaz are definitely exceptional people who I would not try to force into any box.

I used to work in an office that helped clients design valid and reliable surveys, and then we processed and analyzed the completed surveys, and reported the results and discussed conclusions.

There are techniques to help hone and amp up the discriminating power of each question of a questionnaire, and statistical tests to analyze the results, and draw valid conclusions. Sometimes there is predictive power in people’s answers to some questions, from which one can reliably infer or predict their answers to other unasked questions.

-So, for example, if a person favors legalized abortion, they are more likely to also support legalized euthanasia. These positions are highly correlated.

-Being in favor of easy drugs/ being in favor of easy gambling.

-Involvement in drugs and gambling/ higher rate of addiction / higher rate of incarceration.

Slippery slopes. One thing predictive of another.

But as to not trying to convince each other, well. We are to *“earnestly contend.” * We are to try to *“win people over.” * To "turn people back who stray.” So, of course I’m trying to convince people to come over to my viewpoints. I may not be right about the things I choose to argue, but I honestly think I am, and that they are important. Obviously I am no Paul, but I want to be like him (and even more, to manifest Jesus himself in 2018):

-All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16.
-…With gentleness correcting those who are in opposition…2 Timothy 2:25.
-As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures…
.Acts 17:2.

Much of the Bible is corrective. Jeremiah, Isaiah, and so forth - they are correcting, and Paul is correcting, and he is weeping and warning night and day for three years!



Hermano - honor where honor is due: you’ve always been upfront and encouraging and I am appreciative of that. Even if we don’t convince one another, “As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another”, right? Let’s stay sharp! :smiley:


Yeah, Jesus certainly seemed to affirm angels’ existence, but I still find them (and demons) totally implausible. You really believe that outside of our universe there has existed these metaphysical beings? When do you think they were created? When was their universe created? Why don’t they intervene in our world any more now that we have video cameras? What have they been doing when they haven’t been in our universe (which, of course, is most of the time)? I’m sorry, but I can’t force myself to believe in something that goes against my intuition. The stuff in the Bible about angels and demons is part of my crisis of faith.


Why don’t they intervene in our world any more now that we have video cameras?

I don’t suppose you would believe me but i did have an encounter with one in a Post Office parking lot. Re your other questions we are not told that info so any answers would just be speculation. I don’t really understand why it would be harder for God to create Angels then Universes or stars or planets or humans or insects?


Why don’t angels intervene now? Well how do you know they haven’t? There are countless encounters of miracles where strangers happen to show up at the right moment to save someone’s life and then disappear. Also it says we can be entertaining angels and not even know it:

Hebrews 13:2-Don’t forget to show hospitality to strangers, for in doing so, some have entertained angels without knowing it.


No Steve, I don’t believe you.

When I think about our universe running its course for 14 billion years, I find it extremely hard to believe that while stars and planets have been forming and life has been evolving, there have been persons in an alternate level of reality just waiting for human life to evolve so that they could on rare occasion intervene.

You say my questions are speculative. That’s true. But if the possible answers aren’t reasonable, then that’s a good indicator that the narrative needs to be rethought.


I like it. Especially the KJV bible stuff :unamused: These are things we all have to deal with… And thus why we come to forums like this to beat each other up :laughing: :laughing:

If we can really accept other views, even if we don’t embrace them, we will go a long, long way to helping humans understand each other.

Good post :laughing:


qaz said:

Hmm, can you elaborate on why? I am interested.

So you do not think that angles or demons are active today? In other word is it possible that believing that the second coming was fulfilled and Satan and all the cohorts (demons) were thrown into a fiery lake :laughing: and we are now living in a time of grace where angels do not tread?


MM, two posts above yours I explained why I find angels implausible:

My answer may not satisfy you, but there it is. Call it intuition. I can’t buy into angels or demons.


I’ll say I think God is still working. I think he uses Angels and I think because of my understanding of history, Christ came back to judge Israel. After that, I think God is continuing to work and influence people here on his creation. :open_mouth:


No Steve, I don’t believe you.

When I think about our universe running its course for 14 billion years, I find it extremely hard to believe that while stars and planets have been forming and life has been evolving, there have been persons in an alternate level of reality just waiting for human life to evolve so that they could on rare occasion intervene

If i understood you correctly i think it had to do with Angels being metaphysical but isn’t God too? Didn’t John call God “Spirit” plus the “Holy Spirit” is metaphysical too? Why would you believe in one and not the other?


Steve, because God is the ground of all reality. The idea of a sentient ground of reality is plausible to me. Metaphysical creatures who have existed outside the universe and sometimes teleport into the universe to intervene is not.


Metaphysical creatures who have existed outside the universe and sometimes teleport into the universe to intervene is not.

Of course you’re entitled to your belief but it seems to me if God decided He wanted to create metaphysical creatures that existed outside the universe and sometimes travel into the universe to intervene then God would have created these beings called “Angels.” Jesus certainly referred to Angels as did Daniel and Moses and Paul and others.


I’m not saying angels are impossible, just that I find them implausible. It’s like if someone told me that when people aren’t around toys come to life like in the movie “Toy Story”, I wouldn’t buy it. It simply goes against my intuition.


That is interesting qaz. To believe in God and to think He would not have agents working on his behalf is quite remarkable.

I totally believe in God’s not only ability to work within our 2018 world but to work in ways that we can never even fathom.

How can I say this delicately, Enjoy the understanding of who God is and what Jesus did for
us and humanity. Go on… Enjoy :laughing:


MM, no Christian alive today witnessed Jesus’s crucifixion and subsequent resurrected body. It’s something we believe with zero empirical evidence. But we don’t believe everything we’re told without supporting empirical evidence. To believe something without empirical evidence it has to appeal to our intuition. There’s something about the Christ story that seems true to me in a way the stuff about angels does not.


oops, posted in wrong thread… Thought I was in Qaz’s thread.


Measurements of time are based on suppositions. A redshift occurs whenever a light source moves away from an observer. The Red Shift used in astronomy to support Big Bang supposes a constant rate of expansion, going out from an initial explosion of all matter. But some scientists believe there was an initial rapid expansion in the first seconds at a very accelerated rate, before the steady rate that is now observed began.

Many years ago, in a secular science magazine, I read a physicist arguing that almost the entire distance outward currently reached by the celestial bodies could have been attained in the first milliseconds after an initial explosion, before those bodies decelerated to their current sub-lightspeed steady velocity. And he had math that showed his model to be feasible. Can’t find it now. But I’ve seen this again from others, since then. For example: “The Inflation Theory proposes a period of extremely rapid (exponential) expansion of the universe during its first few moments. It was developed around 1980 to explain several puzzles with the standard Big Bang theory, in which the universe expands relatively gradually throughout its history.” Suddenly we can go from 14 billion to a several thousand years, depending on the model.

Also, Red Shift assumes the speed of light is a constant, it assumes light has always traveled at the same rate, and it assumes that the light has not traveled through anything that may change its speed and/or appearance. But physicists have succeeded in both speeding up, and slowing down the speed of light! (See here, here, and here.)

Einstein hypothesized that at the speed of light, time stops. And that at greater than the speed of light, one could move back and forth in time. (I believe that the book of Revelation shows that the author, John, went forward in time.)

Radiocarbon dating techniques used in geology and archeology assume the atmosphere has had the same Carbon 14 concentration in the past as now. And it assumes a constant decay rate. However, there is evidence that radioactive decay rates and concentrations have not been constant in the past. Again, you can go from billions of years, to thousands, depending on your suppositions.

I think you would agree that it would be impossible for anyone to provide real scientific evidence for the origin of time, space, and matter. To discuss something’s origin, we must go beyond time, space, and matter, which takes us outside the realm of science.

Blessings. (PS I will also post this same comment in “Evolution, The Flood, and God’s True Nature.”)


I think it’s too early to tell, what changing the speed of light experiments show - or don’t show. We will have to see if future experiments, can show the same thing. And whether they can be easily replicated. Whether light can be speeded up or slowed down. For now, I’ll just keep an open mind.

I don’t think it makes much difference - theologically…whether we adopt evolution, old earth, and big bang…or some form of seven-day creationism. As long as it doesn’t radically alter - our fundamental theology.


Good discussion here.

I’m going to give you a way to understand the Law and I’m going to use the example of the Speed Limit. At some point in time, civil leaders acknowledged that they had to reduce injury and death on the highways, therefore, they enacted the Speed Limit and that law said to Obey Established Speed Limits.

Now let’s break this down a bit -

Spirit of the Law = Reduce Injury and Death on the Highways
Letter of the Law = Obey Established Speed Limits

Now consider your driving in your car and suddenly a tire falls off the back of some flatbed truck and goes rolling diagnally toward your lane. You know that if you slam on your breaks, the person behind you is going to smash in to the back of your car. But you can quickly identify that if you speed up the tire will pass between your car and the one behind you preventing any problem. However, by speeding up you break the Etablished Speed Limits which is the Letter of the Law. But, you also fulfilled the Spirit of the Law which is to Reduce Injury and Death on the Highways.

You see the Letter of the Law is provided to help you understand the Spirit of the Law. But the problem in the Old Testament is that the Letter of the Law became the Law. In other words, the image became the focus instead of what the image was a reflection of - The Spirt of the Law. Therefore, in the scenario I showed above, if you execute judgement based on the Letter of the Law, you would be guilty for having went over the speed limit. This is how the Letter of the Law can be used unjustly.

Now with Christ, He came and abolished the Letter because He provided a way for the Spirit to abide in us.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;