I hope he or she, is not a “King James only” person. 
[quote=“Holy-Fool-P-Zombie, post:374, topic:6030”]
I hope he or she, is not a “King James only” person.
/quote]
I didn’t think of that possibility, or maybe even liklihood. The KJO crowd maintain that that is the only “true translation” and therefore, it alone can be trusted.
Why yes, I am frustrated. Im back a day and already being called “deaf”.
Like when you angrily call people blasphemers? I dont look for a righteousness of my own. I point to Christs. My relationship with God is amazing. Thanks for asking.
James should be counted for the circumcision. Im not an israelite. And as for the other theologians not writing scripture I could care less about their opinions when it contradicts it.
Show me where I rejected scripture? You and dave are the ones rejecting scripture as “man made” to go along with what some theologians say.
Is that a serious question?
Yup. Sue me.
Concordantly translated scripture.
Nope
HELL NO.
probably not.
Thats ironic.
Like your the president of such matters? Its why I call myself a believer instead of a christian. Because the title christian has taken on such a damnable connotation rife with the teachings of men against scripture.
Rather that than blindly follow theologians.
Thats the difference between you and me. I dont interpret simple verses of scripture. When isaiah states God “creates good an evil” I dont say “hmmmm what does that mean?” nope I say “ok God creates good and evil, how does that harmonize with the rest of scripture.”
again not interpretation. You are projecting here.
NOW are you actually going to directly address ANYTHING in my post or, like usual, insult me and employ rhetoric?
SCREW THE KING JAMES! Full of the same kind of theologians who add words or translate incorrectly to make it mean what they want it too.
You are right. You don’t ask yourself, “What does that mean?” You just assume it means “moral evil” such as lying, theft, murder, etc. It doesn’t. God NEVER creates moral evil. But when you read that He creates evil, perhaps that’s the first thing that popped into your head.
And by the way, when are you going to cease telling that lie, that I accused you of being a blasphemer? You KNOW it is not true.
Again you are projecting paidion. No I take it for what it means. Evil. That encompasses…well EVIL. YOU are interpreting a distinction with what popped into your head when you read it. I am not. Show me in the original manuscript where the word natural is placed before evil.
What is the cross? What about Jobs statement about recieving moral evils commited by men as given by God?
“attacking the character of God” and “what you are saying is blasphemy” would be charging someone with blasphemy. Its what you said I was doing. Hence Id be a blasphemer (someone who is blapsheming) by definition.and , likewise, called someone a blasphemer in this post. I qouted it there. Free Willism or God’s Soeveignty in Salvation of All
You still havent directly addressed a single thing in my second or thrid post here…
Are you gonna take me up on that dare? Start marking out everywhere God commanded, enacted, or used evil for his purposes from scripture.
“let’s take out the war commands, let’s take out Isaiah 45:7,take out the plagues and killing of the first born in Egypt, definitely take out pretty much all of revelations for sure because woah that’s a lot of wrath…, lets take out the stonings for going against the law in the o.t., lets take out judgement cause that won’t feel too nice, while we are at it let’s take out the crucifix and all the verses saying it was Gods plan too because that was the WORST evil ever committed.”
Thats a good start. I mean, as you implied, if you think its fallible there shouldnt be any reason youd have a problem marking it out with a pen.
Jesus’ death on the cross, far from being moral evil, is the greatest act of LOVE in all history!—and God’s greatest act of LOVE. It is the means of being delivered from sin (a life-long process).For those who entrust themselves to Him, and enter the path of righteousness, it is also the means of being delivered from “death” and delivered to lasting life. (John 3:16)
so some innocent man, the Son of God himself, being crucified and spit on and mocked (the biggest sins in the world) wasnt moral evil commited by man? Murder and torture isnt moral evil? Killing and innocent man isn’t moral evil?
Also where was free will in this paidion? If God did it that means the Israelites who turned him over didnt have a choice. The person who put Him on the cross didn’t have a choice. Judas betraying Him didn’t have a choice. The ones who spit and mocked him didnt have a choice.Because it was all God who made it happen. It wouldn’t have happened if they didnt play their part. I agree it was absolutely God, using and foreordaining the moral evil commited to be carried out, to bring about a greater good. But it was also relatively the Jews and romans carrying it out. Its the very lessen taught in jospeh, men had the intention of doing it for evil, God had the intention that it should come to pass for good. Joseph is a “type of Christ” in commiting evil against Joseph to sell him as a slave they unknowingly produced their own salvation during the famine. Same with Christ having moral evil commited unto him by men who unknowingly were producing their own salvation.
Lol and you say I’m delusional?!
Sometimes I wonder why i engage with you paidion.
God didn’t crucify His Son or spit on Him or mock Him. Evil people did it. God GAVE His Son. Perhaps that is a way of saying that He did nothing to prevent those evils that were foisted upon Him. I’m not sure whether or not that is the case. That is, I’m not sure exactly in which sense God gave His Son for our benefit.
You just said God made the crucifix happen. It wouldn’t have happened if they didn’t crucify him. Or Judas didnt betray him. Or the pharisees wrongly accuse him.
You are contradicting yourself.
“God did it, wait no He didn’t evil men did it, wait no God did it”
Its like a dog chasing his own tail.
Here I’ll tell yah the pill youve been refusing to swallow. In the relative sense people did it, in the absolute sense God did it by using people as catalysts to do so. Same with Joseph being sold. His brothers meant it for evil, God meant it for good to save them from the famine.
So again we come back to the crux of the topic. God uses men to commit moral evils for His intention to bring about greater good. As seen by the crucifix,Joseph, job, etc.
Which is it?
Also note the foreshadowig of Abraham. Where God didnt say “stand there and watch while eveil people kill your son.” He said “kill your Son.” It was foreshadowig of what God was going to have to do (kill His own son)
God gave his son.
Men crucified him.
What’s the big mystery?
It’s a who done it.
In scripture the jews are charged for the murder. (The relative sense)
But it also attributes the act to God in many places as His plan (the absolute sense).
The thread above explains “what’s the mystery”
The mystery is how can a moral evil, such as the crucifix, be attributed to God in scriptures as His plan?
The simple solution is the one I provided.
God used men to commit a moral evil fulfilling His intentions.
Did He ‘use’ them in the way we would use a puppet? Did he just ‘allow’ them as free agents?
There is a very bad argument to be made that, since God could have done anything in the beginning, He is responsible for our free acts.
This argument reminds me of that one.
Geez you started replying before I could even finish…
Believe what you guys want but, as I just showed per paidions own contradiction, it makes no sense.
Seriously Gods been telling the same story since the beginning.
First it was Joseph (see above)
And job (see above)
Then the climax and lesson of the whole story Christs crucifixion (see above)
" YOU [MEN] MEANT IT FOR EVIL, BUT GOD MEANT IT FOR GOOD " Joseph. its really that simple but people think they gotta clean up Gods resume for Him and say “no no no God does not use men to commit evil for His intentions” but look at Joseph and his statement and what it accomplished,the salvation from famine. Their evil act ordained by God, unbeknownst to them, produced their salvation. SAME THING WITH CHRIST. That’s why Joseph is a “type of Christ”.
How far are you willing to go with that?
That leaves a whole lot of chance.
As Einstein said
“God does not play dice with His universe”
I mean think of the implications of what you said.
What if the pharisees didnt falsley accuse Him, whatif Judas didnt betray Him, what if pilot let Him go, what if the gaurds refused, what if the crowds demanded Christ be released,etc etc etc. Well…we would be shit out of luck.
I don’t look for “what ifs” I look for “what is” in scrupture.
And it still hardly addressed all of the verses ive so far stated showing God uses evil for His intentions of greater good to come out of it.
I started replying cause i am going to bed so wanted to say one last thing.
He is the Potter we are the clay as stated in romans. And who can withstand His intentions? To whom He wills He is mercying. And to whom He wills He is hardening. And He raises up people for HIS intentions (pharaoh).
No evil EVER has been as brutal or terrible as the crucifixion of God’s innocent son. And that was ordained by God. Therefor no evil before or after it can be written off as “God wouldnt do that!”
What makes you say that?
If you think anythings more evil than crucifying the sinless Son of God and is worse than Him suffering for all the sins of the world then I guess this is a good time to head off to bed. I mean seriously think of the next worse sin than crucifying God’s son. He endured the suffering for that PLUS the sins of the whole world.
And again you’d still have to account for all the verses stating God uses evil for His purpose.
That’s not what you said - read my post. And go to bed yourself, you’re irritating.