The Evangelical Universalist Forum

God does not create, commit, or allow evil!

My thanks for the reply, qaz. Know that you are much appreciated.

Please know that I don’t take issue with election, for I understand, and therefore appreciate, Jehovah’s sovereignty over His creation and that He chooses whom He will, even from before they are born, to accomplish His purpose of the redemption of all human beings, which must include the ones he elected to accomplish a purpose!

It is an elegant thing to me to perceive how He is using turned human beings, and redeemed human beings, and corrupted celestial beings, and un-corrupted celestial beings, and a cursed Earth, to annul the work of the very adversary He rightly holds responsible for the turning of the first two human beings! Even though, apart from The Nacash, The Awdam would have never had a shot at acquiring Virtue before they acquired a conscience!

As Jesus said:

It’s so-called, “predestination,” that I have a problem with!

The two are very different things; and that they are inseparably linked one to another in the thoughts of too many is an unfortunate consequence of Calvinism.

So, now that the expense of Christmas is taken care of, I can purchase a copy of this book. Thanks for the reminder that I intended to do so when I first discovered this forum.

Be good!

Dennis!

I thank you, St.Michael, for this very thoughtful reply.

I have read a scattering of your posts and wish you to know that I appreciate your point of view, for I perceive that you desire to live according to the influence of the Spirit that has made Its home in you, that is to say, according to righteousness.

That’s a very good thing!

Therefore, however you have chosen to respond in your heart to what you called Providence and Predestination is not to be gainsaid by me! For I perceive that it is the heart that is of primary importance to Jehovah, not a theology.

I particularly appreciated the part Chesterton wrote about having one foot in the earth and one foot in fairyland. You see, it was C.S. Lewis’ The Magician’s Nephew and J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Silmarillion, and, of course, George McDoanld, that first got me thinking something different than I was taught. So, I have come to appreciate the role fantasy plays in understanding matters of the Spirit and of the soul.

Perhaps it may be perceived as an unfortunate thing from your perspective, but I am one of those Western-type human beings who equate consistency with truth. Please don’t hold that against me, for Jehovah knows my heart, as He does your’s, and, even as I know my own heart, so does He know that, apart from the understanding I’ve come to, I could not accept Him as the God of the Universe, much less love and worship Him, if I thought for one moment that the logic of Augustine of Hippo (aka Calvinism), accurately conveyed the personality of Jehovah. That’s just me, all over!

Therefore, please know that I am not on this forum, typing from my heart, so that I may refute anything anyone holds in their heart as the truth that motivates them to live righteously. For living from a heart of righteousness, in the end, is all that will matter when we are resurrected and stand before the dais of Christ to have our works approved by fire.

So, be good! :wink:

Dennis!

Ahh! Something different! A challenge to discover! Thank you, Paidion! I figured I could count on you to bring forth something to challenge me, once I caught your attention! :laughing:

I had not considered the verbs you pointed me to as significantly as you suggest. Please know that I am looking into what you pointed out here and will type out a reply with my conclusions.

Concerning literal translations, I am aware of the limitations in using, “one word for one word,” consistently. Such translations are well-called, “wooden translations.”
I know that idioms are always difficult to translate and that the shades of meaning inherent in one language can change the meaning in the original language when a single word is used consistently throughout a translation.

The thing I appreciate about The CLV is that there are precious few like it. Even Rotherham and Young don’t undertake the re-examination of the sacrosanct translations the way Knoch does. Thus, it provides a good base of comparison for the primary meaning of a word, vs. the “shaded,” meanings. Plus, for seeing that Greek can turn a noun into a verb, in much the same way English does, the primary meaning in a noun-cum-verb is retained.

For instance: We ship cargo on a ship!

(So, why don’t we car cargo by car? :laughing: )

Therefore, the CLV helps to bring out a primary meaning, which I find very useful.

Additionally, I perceive that it was this, “need,” to maintain shades of meaning in a translation that gave the KJV interpreters the wiggle-room they needed to insure that the savvy and ulterior-motivated James the first of England was pleased with his royal translation - which was commissioned in response to Calvin’s 1560, and very popular, Geneva Bible, which had margin notes that used Bible text to show that a King does not rule by divine right! Dangerous and therefore slanderous stuff, that.

Here is a brief biography on the personality of this noble King who gave us the 1611 Authorized Version of Holy Writ:

So, historically speaking, I perceive that there is provocation to question this translation on all levels, despite the fact that so many revere this version as being the only sure English translation, as if it were ordained by God, Himself.

I’ll be getting a response out on the verb thingy after a bit.

Please know that you are appreciated.

Be good!

Dennis!

steve7150 wrote:
I would like to blame Satan for the evil or at least killing attributed to God but Jesus doesn’t seem to suggest this in any of his OT references.

I would have to respectfully disagree:

“He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.” John 8:44.

Yes i agree Satan is a murderer and deceiver but it’s Jesus who references “the Law” where Moses many times proclaimed the death penalty for various offenses and Moses spoke for God. Jesus believed Moses spoke for God like here “until heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until all is accomplished” Matt 5.18
Here Jesus validates the law as being just and from God so if Moses was fooled by Satan then so was Jesus.

Well, King James didn’t exactly GIVE us that translation; rather he approved and authorized the translation that was made by 47 scholars from 1604 to 1611. A lot of King-James-Only people think their Bible is the original 1611 Authorized Version. However, it has been considerably revised since then.

Here is what a page from the 1611 Bible actually looked like:

“Until heaven and earth pass away” - this expression indicates that the law never would be destroyed until it should be all fulfilled. It is the same as saying “everything else may change—the very earth and heaven may pass away—but the law of God shall not be destroyed UNTIL its whole design has been accomplished.”

The Law of Moses was abrogated at the cross. Jesus “fulfilled” it/accomplished it/finished it (ginomai).

Here is another hard verse: “For I tell you that UNLESS your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly NOT enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:20.

But let’s clarify it:

*“For IF righteousness comes through the law, THEN Christ died in vain.” *Galatians 2:21.

To wit: righteousness is a gift to be freely received. Romans 5:17. We Christians are the righteousness of God in Christ. 2 Cor. 5:21.

God is perfect, but Moses was not. Let’s not confuse the two. Moses had a perception problem. For example, God told him to “speak to the rock,” in order to bring forth water to graciously provide for his beloved people, but unfortunately Moses angrily embellished the instructions:

“Listen, you rebels, must WE bring you water out of this rock? Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff.” Numbers 20:10-11.

The imperfections of the Law of Moses are indicated by these verses, among others:

-“For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” Jn 1:17.
-“The ministry that brought death…engraved in letters on stone…The ministry that brought condemnation.” 2 Cor. 3:7-9.
-“Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees [Greek: [i]dogma] against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14. [Note: “dogma” are the threatening curses and embellishments added by Moses to God’s instructions. By nailing these to the cross, God [i]“disarmed the powers and authorities” v. 2:15. ]
-
“By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete.”
Hebrews 8:13.
-*“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set." *John 5:45.

Regarding the Bible, Jesus himself is the Word of God. John 1:1. Rev. 19:13. And so the Scriptures point us to THE Word of God, who is a person, Jesus. The Scriptures are only part of a progressive revelation of the goodness of God in Christ—a revelation that will continually increase, forever.

We should remember that the New Testament does not actually begin at Matthew 1:1, but later, with the crucifixion of Christ.

IF being a Christian means “To love God with all one’s heart, soul and mind” (Deut. 6:4,5), and “To love one’s neighbor as oneself” (Lev. 19:18)—THEN I fear there won’t be too many people in heaven. But, to reiterate, the New Covenant began with death of Jesus, not before.

One must bear in mind that most of what Jesus is quoted as saying in the New Testament, he was saying to people under the Law of Moses. For example, in the Sermon on the Mount, lusting became adultery; anger became murder. Jesus was jerking the “works rug” out from under his listeners’ feet and pointing them to the grace of God, himself, the savior of all mankind. (He did the same thing with the rich young ruler, who insisted that he had indeed faithfully kept the commandments.) Furthermore, the New Covenant says, “As the Lord HAS forgiven you, so you also must forgive” (Col 3:13). There is no more “forgive in order to be forgiven.” We forgive because we ourselves were completely forgiven at the cross. All our sins—past, present, and future—were all still future 2000 years ago. But our complete forgiveness took place at the cross (Eph. 1:7, Col. 2:13), NOT on a case by case basis by confessing our sins to God.

The Ten Commandments were part of a ministry that brought death and condemnation. The ministry of the Spirit brings righteousness. Through the death of Christ, the law of the Spirit of life has set us free from the law of sin and death.

Legalism is a system of living in which a person tries to make spiritual progress, and gain God’s blessings, based on what they do. Legalism is focused on behavior and is therefore an earning system. Legalism is the opposite of grace.

Grace is a system of living in which God blesses us because we are in Jesus Christ—and for no other reason at all. Grace is focused on our spiritual birth and is therefore a receiving, and sharing, system.

Legalism says, *“do, do, do.” *Grace says, “done, done, done.” Jesus has done it all. It is finished. Let us strive to enter, and remain in, his Sabbath Rest.

Unfortunately, many well-intentioned preachers actually throw gasoline on the fire of sin—by putting the focus on sin, instead of on Jesus.

Sin is not the problem! Lack of grace is the problem. But sin does not, and cannot, stop God’s grace:

“Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.” Romans 5:20.

Legalistic teachers “load men with burdens hard to bear”: “Behave!” “Obey!” “Promise to be good!”

…instead of unveiling the burden bearer: “Come to me…and I will give you rest.”

When preachers harp on what people must DO–putting the focus on themselves (e.g., “5 Steps”-“3 Keys”-“7 Principles”), instead of teaching them to receive, and rest in, what Jesus already DID–with the focus on Jesus, they are putting their hearers into further bondage to their sins!

Trying to be justified by the law (performance) alienates us from Christ, and causes us to fall away from grace. And GRACE is what keeps us out of sin, not Rules-Laws-Performance:
*

you are not under the law, but under grace.” Rom. 6:14.*
Sadly, the converse of that verse is also true:

‘If you are NOT under grace, but under law, then sin SHALL be your master.’

For Christians, we are not under The Law of Moses, but the Law of Christ.

Blessings.

That is neat Paidion. Fonts have come a long way since then!

God is perfect, but Moses was not. Let’s not confuse the two. Moses had a perception problem. For example, God told him to “speak to the rock,” in order to bring forth water to graciously provide for his beloved people, but unfortunately Moses angrily embellished the instructions:

“Listen, you rebels, must WE bring you water out of this rock? Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff.” Numbers 20:10-11.

The imperfections of the Law of Moses are indicated by these verses, among others:

-“For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” Jn 1:17.
-“The ministry that brought death…engraved in letters on stone…The ministry that brought condemnation.” 2 Cor. 3:7-9.
-“Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees [Greek: dogma] against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14. [Note: “dogma” are the threatening curses and embellishments added by Moses to God’s instructions. By nailing these to the cross, God “disarmed the powers and authorities” v. 2:15. ]
-“By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete.” Hebrews 8:13.
-“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set." John 5:45.

Hermano,
I agree the Law of Moses ended with Jesus and i agree that Moses was not perfect. But my point was that Jesus validated the Mosaic Law when he said “not one jot or tittle should change until” Matt 5.18. So he said the Mosaic Law should not be changed until the right time and the only reason Jesus would have said that is because Jesus believed that God created the Law of Moses, not that Moses created it, or that Moses misunderstood God.

So the point is that the Mosaic Law has many punishments of death in it from God. Therefore it appears to me if you believe it’s not entirely from God then you have to believe Jesus was mistaken? Right?

Hey!

Yesterday I spent the afternoon and evening looking into this thingy you brought to my attention and this is what I discovered.

After consulting a Greek interlinear and then comparing the English conjunctions chosen for the translations of hoti in the KJV, then in Rotherham and Young, and then a Greek Lexicon to assure that what I was concluding was justifiable, I discovered that hoti means that! :laughing:

It seemed to me as I scrolled through the translations, that the use of, “for,” or, “because,” as well as a few other miscellaneous English conjunctions, is dependent upon how the translators chose to accommodate the conversion of the flow of the Greek text into English sentence structure. Not surprisingly, “that,” was chosen almost three times more than the next conjunction, “for.”

Concerning hina, I can see where the idea of, “in order that,” would fit well as I read through the translations. But, there were many scriptures where the English structure made such a reading awkward.

So, the way I see it, you have made a good point.

However, Paul did not choose, hina, he choose hoti. So, this makes the choice of, “that,” “for,” or, “because,” dependent on how the translator wishes to structure the sentence.

For instance, I can take any of the Beatitudes and re-write them so I don’t have to use,“for.”

Blessed are the poor in spirit. It will be that the kingdom of heaven is theirs.
Blessed are those who mourn. It will be that they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek. It will be that they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. It will be that they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful. It will be that they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart. It will be that they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers. It will be that they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake. It will be that they inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Now this is screwy English and a translator would be called on the carpet who did this. But, this does illustrate my point that an English translator can select how he wishes to structure a sentence.

So, for the passage in question, I perceive that a choice was made by the first translators as to how they wanted to structure the sentence. Additionally, I perceive that for the flow of the Greek, either variant, Knoch’s, or Young’s, or the KJV (and thus everyone else’s translation that can’t afford to mess with the sacrosanct, that is, if they want to sell Bibles), is viable. And so the translators went with their bias, even as they do today, and choose a variant sentence structure that could be used to support Calvinism.

In other words, the belief preceded the translation.

It is clear from the history of the English Bible that Augustinianisim, which is reflected in the Latin translations that were intended to bolster the growing Clergy/Laity divide, became the de facto understanding of the middle ages. Later, Calvin systematized Augustinianisim and made sure his Geneva Bible, from which the KJV would come to be derived, also reflected the Latin translation.

So, I’d like to ask, was Augustinianisim, and then Calvinism, the original understanding of the first few centuries of Believers?

No, of course it wasn’t. Universalisim, specifically, the belief that Jesus, the Christ will redeem all of humanity was the original understanding.

Therefore I would like to ask, rhetorically, did not all of the writing apostles warn the ecclessia’s that, when they were gone, there would come in false teachers who would twist the apostles words and mis-lead many?

Did this not happen?

If it did, where did the twisting occur and when?

If it did not, why not?

Please know that I ask only for the sake of reflection.

Predestination, and at that double predestination, as Calvin originally explained it, does not become any less a twisting of scripture just because modern understandings can nullify his infernal, eternal hell within a person’s thinking. Predestination and fore-ordination, like that peculiar eternal hell, were translated into existence, as was the notion that God foreknew the fall of mankind: That is to say that Calvinism leads us to believe that the fall was as much a part of the creation as the separation of Eve from Adam, and therefore, Jehovah intended things to be exactly as they are from before He ever created the first water molecule.

And that includes all the Pain and Suffering we endure, both at the hands of Mother Nature and at the hands of our fellow human beings.

Sorry, but I have a serious problem with Calvinism. Please forgive me.

I’ll be gone till after New Year’s Day.

So, to all of you, please accept my wishes for a very Happy New year, regardless of politics and theology!

May the Joy that comes from the God of Heaven and Earth be as real to you and as expected as your morning shower.

Be good, all of you, my fellow human beings and lovers of God; for that is what He created all of us to be!

Dennis!

Yes, I pointed that out in the scriptural examples which I quoted. But in no scripture does “hoti” EVER mean “that” in the sense of “in order that.”
However, in the passage in question, Knoch’s translation of “hoti” as “that” suggests, contextually, that it IS used in that sense.

I always appreciated Isaiah’s hope in Isaiah 30:26

I also appreciate David’s patient confidence that God himself had the key to escape in Psalm 142:7

[size=125]For the LAW[/size] was given through MOSES, but grace and TRUTH came through JESUS Christ. John 1:17.
"Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven": Considering the incredible devotion to the law shown by the scribes and Pharisees, how could any of us ever hope to exceed their righteousness?

But we later read, “If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” Galatians 2:21. The law sends us to Jesus to be justified, because it shows us our inability to serve God in ourselves. Thankfully, our righteousness is a gift. Rom. 5:17.

*“You have heard that it was said….But I say….” * (Mt. 5:21-44) For example, “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ [Exodus 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21] “But I tell you….”

*“If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.” * Mt. 5:39-40. But wait! Isn’t illegal behavior supposed to be punished, according to Moses?

Yet Jesus says,* 'Love your enemies. Bless them. Pray for them. In doing so you show yourselves to be children of our Father in heaven’* (Mt. 5:44-45). (Note: Jesus does not say, “Put those bad guys to death, in obedience to the added-on embellishments [Greek: dogma] of Moses.”)

These clarifications from Jesus about the Law came BEFORE he went to the cross. Jesus was not mistaken. Moses was mistaken.

When the woman with the issue of blood approached Jesus through the crowd (“His disciples said to him, “Look at this crowd pressing around you. How can you ask, ‘Who touched me?’”), that woman was breaking the Law of Moses! She was commanded to keep herself apart from people (Lev. 15):

"If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood, SHE SHALL BE SET APART seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening….If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, other than at the time of her customary impurity, or if it runs beyond her usual time of impurity, all the days of her unclean discharge shall be as the days of her customary impurity. She shall be unclean.”
DID Jesus rebuke her for breaking the Law of Moses? No, he honored her: “Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, ‘Daughter, be of good cheer; your faith has made you well. Go in peace.’”

To repeat: Moses embellished. However, to paraphrase Jesus: *The Law was made for man, NOT man for the Law. * (Mk. 2:27)

Satan is the killer, not God. God’s nature has never changed: God is only about abundant life. Satan is about death:

“He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.” Jn 8:44b.

“The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.” John 10:10.
*
“Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death – that is, the devil.”* Hebrews 2:14 (YLT).
I take every opportunity to recommend the most liberating essay I ever read, Richard Murray’s SATAN: Old Testament Servant Angel or New Testament Cosmic Rebel?

Blessings.

This does seem to be the rule, but like all rules there will inevitably be the exception, here’s one…

“In order that” or “to the end that” can also be simplified down to “so that”.

It is my understanding that the Ten Commandments given to Moses and the Israelites still stand today. These are the Laws of God/ Spirit as Jesus proclaimed them to be. Breaking them leads to spiritual death which is also true today. However, in order to fulfill them, we must come to obey them through the love and truth of God in our own hearts and minds. In other words, they cannot be fulfilled simply by making laws and forcing people into obedience through coercion. This does not bring about righteousness. I believe Moses may have attempted to do this at some point, but I would say that many who followed afterwards took it a bit further.

It is my understanding that the Ten Commandments given to Moses and the Israelites still stand today. These are the Laws of God/ Spirit as Jesus proclaimed them to be. Breaking them leads to spiritual death which is also true today. However, in order to fulfill them, we must come to obey them through the love and truth of God in our own hearts and minds. In other words, they cannot be fulfilled simply by making laws and forcing people into obedience through coercion. This does not bring about righteousness. I believe Moses may have attempted to do this at some point, but I would say that many who followed afterwards took it a bit further.

My understanding is that the Mosaic Law of which the 10 Commandments were a part of have both moral and ritual laws. The moral laws are from God’s character so they are eternal but the ritual laws have passed away.

To repeat: Moses embellished. However, to paraphrase Jesus: The Law was made for man, NOT man for the Law. (Mk. 2:27)

Hermano,
Jesus said The Sabbath was made for man in Mk 2.27. As you know Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

OK you said Moses embellished , so that seems vague to me. What did he embellish? Are you saying the commands from God about putting someone to death in “the Law” are not from God but from Satan or Moses imagination?

Please just state your position clearly, i’m not interested in attacking it. I already said Jesus said “not one jot or tittle from the law shall be changed until” Matt 5.18.

So i think the two strongest statements Jesus made about the law are these two which were “not one jot or tittle” and “I did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.” If that doesn’t convince you that Jesus validated the Mosaic Law we will agree to disagree.

I’m just looking for you to clearly state in your own words a summary of what Moses embellished in the Mosaic Law! Thanks

Steve7150, I agree with what you are saying here. All that was in the Law that was not of God, such as the rituals etc. , “died” or passed away. If I remember correctly, at some point God said He would destroy Israel and raise up a new nation, but Moses pleaded with God not to do so. My guess would be that this is where Moses may have gone wrong. As Hermano mentioned, he also struck the rock which was another mistake, and according to Jesus, he allowed divorce. I would say that the divorce being spoken of had a spiritual meaning to it.

Steve7150, I agree with what you are saying here. All that was in the Law that was not of God, such as the rituals etc. , “died” or passed away. If I remember correctly, at some point God said He would destroy Israel and raise up a new nation, but Moses pleaded with God not to do so. My guess would be that this is where Moses may have gone wrong. As Hermano mentioned, he also struck the rock which was another mistake, and according to Jesus, he allowed divorce. I would say that the divorce being spoken of had a spiritual meaning to it.

Hi LLC,
I didn’t mean the ritual laws were not of God, only that they were symbolic of something greater so when the greater came the rituals passed away.

I do not believe Jesus validated all of Mosaic Law. In fact, I believe he outright contradicted parts of Mosaic Law. (I have given the example of the woman with the 12 year issue of blood.)

I believe Moses sometimes confused God with Satan. I believe God is nonviolent, and would never order violence carried out in His name. ANYTIME we see a commandment to put someone to death as the will of God (by Moses or anyone else), the Scripture writer in that instance was being directed by his own culture, his own anger issues, or Satan himself.

Let me concatenate snippets of some of my earlier comments, with their relevant embedded reference links:

Steve7150, I think many of the rituals and doctrines came about through misinterpretation and twisting of the words to make them fit one’s own understanding and agenda.
As Jesus says in Mark 7:7-13 “And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men-the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do. All t0 well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, ‘Honor you father and mother’ ; and ‘He who curses father or mother , let him be put to death’. But you say 'If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban.” And you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”