The Evangelical Universalist Forum

God does not create, commit, or allow evil!


#321

He told them that they could eat from ANY tree except the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. So they had God’s permission to eat from the Tree of Life. But there’s nothing in the record that indicates that they ever did.

I’m sure there were many good fruit trees in the garden but just ONE Tree of Life. Perhaps they never came across it.


#322

Gabe:

What are some of the things you learned?


#323

…Gabe then goes on to quote from “Robert M. Price,” who talks about, for example, what should be done if someone was about to rape your wife; the wrongness of equating the victim with the victimizer; the demonstrably poor judgment of appeaser Neville Chamberlain, etc.

But Gabe, I think you are misinterpreting me. I am talking about action, not passivity; living as victors, not victims. I am talking about the supernatural, versus the natural. Spirituality vs. carnality. Trusting in the Lord, instead of leaning on our own understanding.

I am not talking about the work of presidents and policemen and soldiers—although I thank God for them. I am talking about the unlimited resources of the Kingdom of Heaven, and our work, as Christians.

We should be supernatural. We should be prophetic:

-We have the keys of the kingdom: we are to bind death and loose life. What about Psalm 91 angelic protection being loosed over our homes? --And prophets shouldn’t be taken by surprise by bad guys breaking into their homes (see 2 Kings 6:9-12).

-And as to the cost of feeding prisoners, instead of executing them, we Christians are to be channels of heavenly financial resources—the same as we should be for an unwanted baby to come full term, instead of being aborted because there is apparently not enough money to maintain it.

God is only about life, even abundant life (John 10:10). He is well able to care for everything His hand has made, and He wants to use us, the Church, to help do that. As for resources, the Father told the older brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son: Everything I have is yours.” Luke 15:31. Believers are not to be limited by the laws of physics, the laws of economics, the laws of medicine, etc.

If someone breaks into my home and attacks my wife, I will certainly fight for her (although hopefully I won’t kill the attacker). But I am not called to be a policeman. If someone attacks my country, I will pray for the military. But I am not called to be a soldier. As a praying Christian, I know how to use my time better than being a policeman or a soldier. “Our struggle is NOT against flesh and blood,” and “The weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal.” Ephesians 6:12, 2 Corinthians 10:4.

As my friend Richard has said, “We have downloaded into our hearts a HUGE Satanic lie.”

Foundational to a correct understanding and practice of spiritual warfare, I offer you a refutation of the primacy of morality (from Richard Murray’s book, God vs. Evil):

From the foregoing, allow me to offer another, possibly more accurate, name for the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil:

The Tree of Greater and Lesser Evil.

After all, it was a forbidden tree. So how could it offer anything genuinely “good”?


Romans 13: does it call us to do whatever our governments tell us to?
#324

I would kill in self defense (including in defense of family members), but I don’t support the death penalty. I think there’s a huge moral difference between killing someone who is in the act of causing serious harm to someone, and killing someone who is not.


#325

But if they had what would the fruit have done to them since according to you that they already had immorality and if they ate from the tree they would live forever(meaning they would become immortal)? If the fruit from the tree gives immorality again what would the fruit done to them if they had eaten from it while they were already immortal?


#326

I have never said that they had immortality to begin with. If they had been truly immortal then nothing could have caused them to die.

After eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they then had immorality, but they didn’t have immortality.

Before eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they were in a state that was neither mortal nor immortal. It could go either way.
They made a choice that began the death process. Had they eaten thereafter from the Tree of Life, the death process would have ended, and they would have been immortal. So God prevented them from re-entering the garden and eating from the Tree of Life.


#327

Well here is what you said:

God didn’t create them mortal, but they became mortal through disobedience”

So if God didn’t create them mortal then He created them immortal or are you backtracking here?


#328

I am not backtracking in any way. I still hold the same position I held from the beginning.

Have you not read what I said in my most recent post above? Here is your illogical clause:

As I said earlier, the consequent of this conditional clause does not follow logically from its antecedent.
You presume incorrectly that “mortal” and “immortal” are collectively exhaustive. They are not.

As I said in my previous post, they were created NEITHER mortal no immortal. “Mortal” means “subject to natural death,” whereas “immortal” means “not subject to death of any kind.” They were created NOT mortal, and NOT immortal. They BECAME mortal immediately after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil—subject to natural death. If they had afterward eaten from the Tree of Life, they would have become immortal—not subject to death of any kind.


#329

Am I the only one here who doesn’t think the story of Adam and Eve is actual history? The whole story is totally implausible to me. I feel so out of place reading you guys argue about this, like on this planet Earth there was a real garden with a real tree of knowledge of good and evil and a real tree of life.


#330

You are not alone qaz; as you are aware, there are good and sufficient explanations for why the A/E story could very well be ‘true myth’.


#331

Why is the story of Adam and Eve implausible? To me, everything fits–

-…The son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. Luke 3:38.

-Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. Rom. 5:14.

-For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Cor. 15:22.

-*So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. * 1 Cor. 15:45.

-For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 1 Tim. 2:13.

-Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones….” Jude 1:14.
Once you start snipping at the miraculous historicity and the predictive prophecy, can you stop yourself :question:

Noah? “You’re kidding, right?”

Samson? “Puh-LEASE!”

Daniel? “Historical events post-dated (ex eventu) to look like genuine predictive prophecies, with some fairy tales thrown in.”

Angels? “The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits.” Acts 23:8.

Satan? “A personification of human evil.”

Antichrist? a.k.a. “The one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders”—see above.
Blessings.


#332

Hermano I was not sniping at anything. If you carefully read what I wrote, I said a case COULD be made that explained the story without taking it literally, but still encapsulating the Truth God wants us to know.*

And the slippery slope argument does NOT work. I think you know that. Using intelligence and scholarship and history, we can honor God’s word more than well…other ways, in recognizing things such as genre, form criticism, oral tradition, dating of the sources, history of surrounding societies and their mythologies - you are behind the curve, dude!

OTOH - we ain’t gonna convince one another. I think your fears are misplaced; no doubt I’m being deceived because I disagree. Wow!!


#333

Hermano I was not sniping at anything. If you carefully read what I wrote, I said a case COULD be made that explained the story without taking it literally, but still encapsulating the Truth God wants us to know.*

I think taking the Creation story symbolically is different then calling it a myth? Symbolically means it could be inspired by God but “myth” sounds like it’s “made up”, at least to me.

It’s possible the story is symbolic and to me it wouldn’t matter but Jesus referenced people and events in it specifically and in a way that sounds literal.


#334

Hermano, I don’t believe in a worldwide flood or the Samsom story either. I have a hard time believing in angels too, as metaphysical beings that have existed outside of nature in some unexplained society. The universe is 14 billion years old. When was the angels’ universe created? What do they do when they’re not intervening in our universe? Sorry hermano, but the whole idea of angels is totally implausible to me.


#335

Which raises a question, since the bible mentions angels. And angels are mentioned, in both the Old and New Testaments. Do you only believe parts of the bible? If so, which parts do (or don’t, depending on which is easier) - you believe or disbelieve.


#336

Since the NT mentions Adam as a literal person it’s a 100% certainty that A&E were literal people. The NT debunks that the OT creation story is a myth.


#337



#338

Randy, I believe in Jesus’s miracles, death, and resurrection. I believe the stories of the apostles recorded in Acts. And I believe in the temple and exile stories. But I’m skeptical about a lot in the Bible. I don’t think Genesis 1-11 are actual history, and I think a lot of the historically true stuff in the Bible is embellished with non-literal elements.


#339

Since the NT mentions Adam as a literal person it’s a 100% certainty that A&E were literal people. The NT debunks that the OT creation story is a myth.

Jesus mentioned “the blood of Abel” and other specific things about Creation so i take it literally but you can mention specific things that are symbolic simply as a point of reference.


#340

I have a hard time believing in angels too, as metaphysical beings that have existed outside of nature in some unexplained society. The universe is 14 billion years old. When was the angels’ universe created? What do they do when they’re not intervening in our universe? Sorry hermano, but the whole idea of angels is totally implausible to me.

I think Jesus told Peter that if he asked his Father to send 40 legions of Angels to help it would be done so if Angels don’t exist then Jesus can’t be trusted.