The Evangelical Universalist Forum

God does not create, commit, or allow evil!


#381

so some innocent man, the Son of God himself, being crucified and spit on and mocked (the biggest sins in the world) wasnt moral evil commited by man? Murder and torture isnt moral evil? Killing and innocent man isn’t moral evil?

Also where was free will in this paidion? If God did it that means the Israelites who turned him over didnt have a choice. The person who put Him on the cross didn’t have a choice. Judas betraying Him didn’t have a choice. The ones who spit and mocked him didnt have a choice.Because it was all God who made it happen. It wouldn’t have happened if they didnt play their part. I agree it was absolutely God, using and foreordaining the moral evil commited to be carried out, to bring about a greater good. But it was also relatively the Jews and romans carrying it out. Its the very lessen taught in jospeh, men had the intention of doing it for evil, God had the intention that it should come to pass for good. Joseph is a “type of Christ” in commiting evil against Joseph to sell him as a slave they unknowingly produced their own salvation during the famine. Same with Christ having moral evil commited unto him by men who unknowingly were producing their own salvation.

Lol and you say I’m delusional?!

Sometimes I wonder why i engage with you paidion.


#382

God didn’t crucify His Son or spit on Him or mock Him. Evil people did it. God GAVE His Son. Perhaps that is a way of saying that He did nothing to prevent those evils that were foisted upon Him. I’m not sure whether or not that is the case. That is, I’m not sure exactly in which sense God gave His Son for our benefit.


#383

You just said God made the crucifix happen. It wouldn’t have happened if they didn’t crucify him. Or Judas didnt betray him. Or the pharisees wrongly accuse him.

You are contradicting yourself.

“God did it, wait no He didn’t evil men did it, wait no God did it”

Its like a dog chasing his own tail.

Here I’ll tell yah the pill youve been refusing to swallow. In the relative sense people did it, in the absolute sense God did it by using people as catalysts to do so. Same with Joseph being sold. His brothers meant it for evil, God meant it for good to save them from the famine.

So again we come back to the crux of the topic. God uses men to commit moral evils for His intention to bring about greater good. As seen by the crucifix,Joseph, job, etc.


#384

Which is it?

Also note the foreshadowig of Abraham. Where God didnt say “stand there and watch while eveil people kill your son.” He said “kill your Son.” It was foreshadowig of what God was going to have to do (kill His own son)


#385

God gave his son.
Men crucified him.
What’s the big mystery?


#386

It’s a who done it.

In scripture the jews are charged for the murder. (The relative sense)

But it also attributes the act to God in many places as His plan (the absolute sense).

The thread above explains “what’s the mystery”

The mystery is how can a moral evil, such as the crucifix, be attributed to God in scriptures as His plan?

The simple solution is the one I provided.

God used men to commit a moral evil fulfilling His intentions.


#387

Did He ‘use’ them in the way we would use a puppet? Did he just ‘allow’ them as free agents?
There is a very bad argument to be made that, since God could have done anything in the beginning, He is responsible for our free acts.
This argument reminds me of that one.

Geez you started replying before I could even finish…


#388

Believe what you guys want but, as I just showed per paidions own contradiction, it makes no sense.

Seriously Gods been telling the same story since the beginning.

First it was Joseph (see above)
And job (see above)
Then the climax and lesson of the whole story Christs crucifixion (see above)

" YOU [MEN] MEANT IT FOR EVIL, BUT GOD MEANT IT FOR GOOD " Joseph. its really that simple but people think they gotta clean up Gods resume for Him and say “no no no God does not use men to commit evil for His intentions” but look at Joseph and his statement and what it accomplished,the salvation from famine. Their evil act ordained by God, unbeknownst to them, produced their salvation. SAME THING WITH CHRIST. That’s why Joseph is a “type of Christ”.


#389

How far are you willing to go with that?


#390

That leaves a whole lot of chance.

As Einstein said

“God does not play dice with His universe”

I mean think of the implications of what you said.

What if the pharisees didnt falsley accuse Him, whatif Judas didnt betray Him, what if pilot let Him go, what if the gaurds refused, what if the crowds demanded Christ be released,etc etc etc. Well…we would be shit out of luck.

I don’t look for “what ifs” I look for “what is” in scrupture.

And it still hardly addressed all of the verses ive so far stated showing God uses evil for His intentions of greater good to come out of it.

I started replying cause i am going to bed so wanted to say one last thing.

He is the Potter we are the clay as stated in romans. And who can withstand His intentions? To whom He wills He is mercying. And to whom He wills He is hardening. And He raises up people for HIS intentions (pharaoh).

No evil EVER has been as brutal or terrible as the crucifixion of God’s innocent son. And that was ordained by God. Therefor no evil before or after it can be written off as “God wouldnt do that!”


#391

What makes you say that?


#392

If you think anythings more evil than crucifying the sinless Son of God and is worse than Him suffering for all the sins of the world then I guess this is a good time to head off to bed. I mean seriously think of the next worse sin than crucifying God’s son. He endured the suffering for that PLUS the sins of the whole world.

And again you’d still have to account for all the verses stating God uses evil for His purpose.


#393

That’s not what you said - read my post. And go to bed yourself, you’re irritating.


#394

Lol Dave… I find these types of posts below the most appreicated and refreshing… :rofl:


#395

I was going only off the rhetorical question you provided. Weren’t you the one that once said “take your time to provide responses to the person you are conversation with and form a point,etc”

I’d idc if im irritating.

Also I said I would going to bed. Not you go to bed. As evident from the context of my post previous to that one.


#396

Sometimes I condense two posts, or feel like it didn’t directly address something. Don’t you think we are already in the new heavens and earth? Everythings already done? Theres nothing else to expect from scripture? What does anything matter to you then? Gods already all in all? Everyone’s already reconciled? Your “spiritual death” is already done? This is as good as it gets?


#397

What… you’re talking to me!? lol :sunglasses:


#398

Yes Im actually curious now that i thought about it? What does any of it matter to you considering the above?

After all, all judgements over, this is already the new heavens and earth, this is as good as it gets,Gods already all in all? So what does it matter to you what they believe? Everything’s already done in scripture, according to you.


#399

A lot of people believe a lot of misinformation and are thereby the worse for it… education can be liberating.


#400

Dave B and I often agree.
Sometimes we disagree with each other, but we are never disagreeable with each other.
I can say the same concerning the way I relate to Bob Wilson.

I wish it could be said that all who post on this forum were never disagreeable.
I do say that I regret any occasion upon which any of you have found me disagreeable.