Thanks, simply gutter evangelism. 
In the end, everybody must find their own philosophical and theological answers, to the problem of pain and suffering. As a pragmatist, I suggest they find, what works for them. 
Not necessarily what some classical nor contemporary theologian or philosopher said…Nor what someone necessarily said here, with an RYO (AKA Roll Your Own) answer. And given the two choices, I would rather run with what some classical (or contemporary) theologian or philosopher said.
And the Holy Fool tradition - might say this:
It’s all a matter of perspective, and the right song. 
And no. Month Python is not necessarily, making fun of Christianity. As the Monty Python movie (AKA Life of Brian), deals with historical, artistic topics - like how Romans normally killed people.
Yes, I agree. There is a truly unique way of thinking about Pain and Suffering that is found only in Universalisim as one contemplates the thought that redemption is not limited to this life, but that the offer of redemption remains for everyone, even after death.
As I thoughtfully grew to accept that the Universalist arguments were of truth, I came to grips with an uncomfortable thought in my heart that had never been challenged before. Indeed, it wasn’t until Universalisim started its life-changing debate in my heart that I was forced to acknowledge this thought’s influence.
The thought was that I liked the idea that eternal and conscious torment awaited sinful human beings - especially for those uber-sinful ones that caused me Pain and Suffering - as long as I was exempt from it.
Man, that’s ugly.
I felt shame. And that was when I fully realized that Universalisim, the belief that Jehovah can and will save all of humanity through Jesus Christ, exactly as He said He was going to, was, indeed, the truthful thought, the real axiom, on which I should build my understanding of scripture.
As a corollary to squaring-off with this understanding of my heart, I came to perceive that this was how religion was turned from providing comfort and assistance for those in need to giving people a way of thinking that exempted them from hell for as long as they believed that hell was eternal and conscious torment for sinful human beings.
Historically considered, that is why Universalisim, the belief of the first two centuries of Christianity, was replaced with Augustinianisim as The Words were carefully translated into what we have today. Augustinianisim gave the clergy, in the expanding clergy/laity divide - the Nicolations as they were first called - the power they needed to be, “victorious over the people,” because Augustinianisim’s power is the fear of an eternal and conscious torment for sinful human beings, as long as an exemption is provided for those of the true faith.
Think on the history of The Church in the middle ages, and then on the history of your own heart before you embraced Universalisim, and I think you’ll find this an arresting thought.
I am sharing this as a way of explaining why the thought that Jesus Christ can and will redeem all of humanity is both a truthful way of thinking that leads to truthful thoughts that enable one to endure the reality of Pain and Suffering in this age of human history, even as it did for the first Believers, and why Christian resistance to Universalisim is so vehement. For as long as a human being can believe that he or she is exempt from conscious and eternal torment for their sins, for the evil they do that leads to Pain and Suffering in others, they can happily embrace their election as a separation from the rest of humanity in the way one would embrace a membership in an exclusive club that was paid for by it’s owner.
A lot of justification for my evil actions was found when that thought was a truth in my heart; for don’t I like to think in my heart that, somehow, I’m better than everybody else?
And isn’t that also a thought within my heart that is challenged by believing that Jesus Christ can and will redeem all of humanity?
Yes it is.
Be good!
Dennis!
Well, if you accept literally Moses’ account of creation in Genesis, you would not make that presumption.
God planted the Tree of Life there in the Garden along with the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There is no indication that Adam and Eve ever tasted the fruit of the Tree of Life, though they were never forbidden to do so. But, at the instigation of the Serpent, they did “fall” from God’s grace by eating the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. After that God sent them out of the garden and posted cherubim to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life and live forever. God didn’t create them mortal, but they became mortal through disobedience, and then God took steps to see that they remained mortal.
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life. (Genesis 3:22-24 ESV)
This thesis could be disproved thus…
Will mankind have a will in glory? Yes. Will ‘crap’ happen in glory? No.
So the fact that we have a will is not the reason for sin, but instead that our wills are fallen.
Which brings us back to the question of original sin, how did the will of every human being become fallen such that we are bent toward sin?
Of course we’ve debated this before.
how did the will of every human being become fallen such that we are bent toward sin?
Of course we’ve debated this before.
Back to square one because if you look at Eve and her thoughts and actions, she had a bent toward sin before any fall.
Hi Jeff, you are right, we’ve been through this before. I believe that your Idea of Glory is a bit tainted, though that is a very different subject. Your idea about original sin is a slog. You and everyone else here can debate this till the cows com home I believe that our father is in control and yet gives us free agency. Hard to understand and very hard to defend using scripture. There is a faith element involved, and I see no reason to shoehorn old decrepit ideas about the God YHWH and Christ that came for a specific reason into some place that puts humanity into a perilous/ unreconcilable position. Glory is the idea of the creator bringing back the lost into his fold. Very simple and very cool.
And yet I love you and know your position is valid in your world! 
https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/47ec/zgdncoo9opz25hj6g.jpg
It all boils down, to a simple matter of perspective. 
Ahh but Randy, what is your perspective? 
My perspective is that there is some perspective somewhere…we just need to find it
Ahh my friend, let all those who read these delectable tidbits know where you are coming from.
Creation’s fall into corruption happened before Adam and Eve actually committed their sin. First, Satan’s rebellion already occurred. And God obviously knew that Satan’s deception would be effective over mankind. Second, one could also conclude that sometime between the ‘very good’ of creation and when Adam and Eve committed their crime, some time between those two events their hearts became bound to sin by God himself as Romans 8:20 and Romans 11:23 testify. Had Adam and Eve remained ‘very good’ they would have been able to resist Satan’s deception. And of course in glory we will be restored to very good and glorious such that we will never fall to temptation and sin again ever… oh glorious day!
Hi, Chad. Let me comment.
Steve said:
Jeff said:
Yada, Yada, Yada. Blah, Blah, Blah. Etc.
Some topics in theology, we do not have enough information to reach conclusions. Like what are the motives of Adam and Eve collectively, based upon the Genesis account. Sometimes folks here, want to go off with theories and ideas. And professional theologians have not ventured there. If the professional theologians don’t venture there - then neither do I. In other words, I need to be able to do a proper keyword search. And find the topic discussed or essays written on it - by profession theologians, philosophers or scientists. Either folks here are “ground breakers” or they are “up $h*! creek, without a paddle”. I prefer not to speculate, if historical and contemporary theologians (and other professionals) - haven’t already done so.
Now on the topic of God, along with why the suffering and pain. I have given answers, from professional theologians and philosophers. I have also listened to Dennis’s input and rebuttal. Then responded with my own views and insights. Then I have left it up to folks here, to find what theological and philosophical answers, work for them.
One thing I have learned over the years, from hanging out with those considered wise (and often hard to find), in the Native American and Eastern worlds. They don’t always like to answer deep questions (even if they have a good answer or know the answer). And they like to point people - to practical answers, that they can use. And how to behave more ethically and help others in need.
Plenty of experts, mystics, shamans, professors, around. Problem is, the world is like a hall of mirrors. Each one we look into shows things a bit or a lot different. Westminster Creed mirror = one kind of mirror. Pragmatism = another kind. Shaman - another kind. Literature - another kind.
I guess it still comes down to who you choose to be your authority. Protestant reading of bible = one kind of mirror. Catholic = another. Marcion = another.
We just are not in a small village anymore, where everyone has the same values and every mirror is the same.
I think the only credible thing we have is love. Let those that love us mirror us, and vice-versa.
We all need those whom or what, we deem as authoritative. For me and Christianity, it is Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition. And those who are shamans and mystics, also have something to say. As long as they are in accordance with, centuries of tradition.
For example.
Suppose a new age person, adopting a few Native American trends - had something to say. I would ignore him or her.
But if a Native American medicine man or woman, had something to say…And they embedded centuries of tradition behind them - I would listen.
Same goes with academic professors. Is one a “recognized” ground breaker? Or are they recognized historical figures?
Sure, I have things I like.
Eastern Orthodoxy theology, within an Anglican framework
Native American ceremonial and medicine wisdom
Recognized or historical, academic professors
Saints from the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Eastern, Native American and Sufi traditions
Etc.
All have something to contribute. And when I put my Holy Fool tradition upon it, I have my own, personal house of mirrows.
Please Randy, don’t think I was referring to you - I wasn’t. I appreciate your contributions and eclecticism and in fact we have a lot in common.
All I wanted to do was present the 'funhouse mirrors" as a metaphor for the cultural situation. I think it is an apt metaphor. Naturally, I choose the mirrors that make me look the best.
That is exactly what I did!
I was going to start my reply on that day with exactly the quote you provided from The Problem of Evil.
However, and much to my delight, when I signed on that morning, I found you had already provided that very quote in your reply to my post from the previous day!
You see, I am very careful and deliberate in my replies because I am baring my heart. This means that my posts take a great deal of time to write. So, for finding our thoughts aligned through your selection of that quote, I sped things up a bit and just replied within the quote.
I wouldn’t call it a new literary style, rather it is just something that can be done for our using computers to communicate. 
Please know, Randy, that I have benefited greatly from your request to reply. My replies challenge me to carefully examine my typing to ensure that my words are accurately conveying my heart. Therefore, my heart and I have become better acquainted. Thank you.
Hummm.
Randy, when I thought about what first came to my heart as a reply to this statement, I realized I needed to consider it carefully, lest I be labeled unfavorably, and thus be ignored.
It took a day, but, as I wrote out the thought, I realized that, as subjective as it is, it might still be beneficial in helping someone to realize that there is a great reality beyond this world, and that it is truly not to be compared with the suffering of this present age.
When I was between marriages and shortly before I met my second wife, when I was free to think about how good it was going to be to get to fall in love all over again, I had a vivid dream wherein I saw the Kingdom of God on a New Earth. Sunshine was everywhere and there were no clouds; weather, as we know it, just did not exist. Moderate temperatures meant everyone wore fanciful, diaphanous and colorful clothing. Respect for the glory in our sexuality made the appreciation of human beauty a thing of beauty itself because all human beings were beautiful to behold! And, human beings were good, all of them! It seemed that, to think of men and women as, “from a race,” was a non-sequitur. Some human beings had been alive for over a thousand years! Everyone worked in some aspect of every art; they painted and wrote and sculpted and performed in plays about good things, and performed in shows of incredible acrobatic skill, and made music and danced. Many were multi-talented because that long-life span encouraged the learning of many disciplines, including the sciences. Any who enjoyed athletics competed in serious games of challenge and skill, followed by jesting that came from hearts filled with the love and appreciation of any one human being for any other. Strength never failed and creativity was unfettered in all.
Homes were open things of individuality and pride, ever expanding over endless land. Children were deliberate acts of creation brought into existence by parents who dedicated themselves to their children’s upbringing because marriages were age-lasting, passionate and satisfying things for each being respectful of gender. A marriage could result in several new families being raised by one couple! Fertility seemed under the control of the will because sex was under the control of the soul and no soul sinned.
Food and water was never a problem and all types of beverages were readily available because fruit trees and edible plants flourished with only a little care and the Earth kept the water pure as it came up from beneath the ground into pools; and there was that wide, wide river of water so pure it was almost invisible as it meandered throughout the land. The preparation of food and drink was a daily delight, creatively prepared, then shared by all with all, with no thought given to preservation. Laughter was easy, and it was everywhere.
Technology was present, and it was fantastic for being in harmony with nature. Men and women built incredible structures of great purpose, beauty and design; machines, used to transport people and goods and to process resources for creative purpose, worked on principals that seemed organic.
But, the best part of my dream were the joyful Seventh-day concerts; fifty-two concerts a year! Attended by The Redeemed from the previous eon and transmitted all over the world, it was a true honor for artists and musicians and poets and performers to be invited into New Jerusalem and present before the King and His Bride!
And, oh! That smile on His face!
“Behold! The dwelling place of God is with men,” echoed at each turn through my dream.
Okay. There it is.
I am wondering, though, because I really wouldn’t know, does that dream make me mystic? For, most certainly, this dream affects my perceptions in the here and now.
I noticed. 
If there be anything of goodness, dwell on it!
Well, you certainly get around! Sounds like something of great value. Cherish it.
May that come to be the reality of existence in all of us.
There is something pragmatic in everything I’ve typed out on this forum. My hope, then, in baring my heart as I have done, is to discover if it resonates with any other hearts posting on this forum. Living from the heart is the most pragmatic thing we do because we can’t help but live from our heart! And, don’t you know, we need other human beings to help us appreciate that what we see in others is in us, also - and that what we see in ourselves is present in others.
So, be good!
Dennis!
Dennis said:
It could very well be, Dennis:
Contemporary Old Catholic mystic and stigmatic Tiffany Snow, addressed dreams in an article entitled What Does God Say? What Are Dreams
The Old Testament is full of folks who have dreams and God’s prophets or servants, who could interpret them
The Islamic Sufi mystics, put great stock in dream and dream interpretation
The Tibetans have a yoga practice called Dream Yoga
The Native American put great stock in dreams.
Etc.
The only point I disagree, with the visions of Tiffany Snow - is this. She interprets some visions of people in the past, as possible past lives. I interpret this as tapping into genetic memory. Or what Carl Jung might call the collective unconscious. See, for example:
Science Is Proving Some Memories Are Passed Down From Our Ancestors
I enjoy our conversations, because we are having a dialogue. Which is a term that Roman Catholic theologians, use for talks with other Christian and non-Christian traditions.
Here’s an example of not having a dialogue and where the conversation is one sided
In Genesis 3 when Eve responds to the serpent it appears to me that she already has a bent toward sin before any so called “fall.” But i may be wrong, i may be missing something, so any feedback would be appreciated. BTW i have no dog in the fight because i am willing to accept that even if there are many things i don’t understand, i’m OK just believing God has good reasons for doing what he did.
“And he said to the woman, Has God indeed said , you shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” And the woman said to the serpent “we may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, but of the tree in the midst of the garden, God has said, you shall not eat it, nor touch it, lest you die.”
Then the serpent said to the woman ," you will surely not die , for God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food , that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of the fruit and ate. Gen 3.2 -3.6
So the key to me is that before Eve ate, she lusted with her flesh, and her eyes, and the pride of life, the three sins of the world that John mentions in the NT. So was it already in her before Satan tempted her and since she came out of Adam, she would have Adam’s DNA. Also God never said that they could not touch the tree.
So was Eve innocent before the serpent tempted her or did she already have a bent to sin? How do you see it?
Paidion, I interpret the story of Adam and Eve differently than others do. To me,God was not condemning them, as many believe. He was actually saving them. There is nothing in the story that leads me to believe that Adam and Eve where anything other than mortal. By mortal I mean human beings/man. They were simply human beings born of the spirit of God. So I would say they would have been eating from the Tree of Life before the fall. In the story above, God says "Behold, the man has become like one of us… I don’t think God is the one saying this. It makes no sense to me to say “the man has become like one of us” after eating the forbidden fruit, when Adam was created in the image of God in the first place and was already “like God” before this happened. And if eating the fruit made him “like God” then I suppose he would have eternal life at that point, and the serpent’s statement, “your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil”, would be correct. From what I understand, God wants us to be like Him, so that we may have eternal life. In this case, it was the serpent who didn’t want Adam to eat from the Tree of Life. This is why God lead him out of the garden, and the Tree of Life was placed east of Eden.