The Evangelical Universalist Forum

God is a concept by which we measure our pain

Theology Philosophical
#21

Johnny Boy, The Prof, Nimblewill, ANUniversalist, and We Are ALL Brothers, oh and Sturmy too!! Sorry Sturmy.

This is the first I’ve been out to the forum in months… this topic, for some very, very obvious reasons, piqued my interest. I believe I have a thing or two to say about this, NOT that any of it would be helpful or inspired, but it WOULD be MY experience. Need to wait just a bit for meds to catch up to my wakefulness and then I’d like to say a thing or two. Probably get my tired backside kicked outta here, but oh well. So I will return because Nimblewill I truly believe is on to something for ME, maybe not the general population. Pain is the great leveler, period. And unless someone has REALLY experienced PAIN whether it be emotional, physical, or spiritual, they cannot with certainty speak about it. But after writing that last statement, who among US has NOT experienced some form of pain that was unbearable or so it seemed? And IF that is true, why do we still tend to inflict pain on others, KNOWING that pain hurts?? More later… thanks for starting this Johnny as I swore I’d NEVER come back to this forum due to pain, but I couldn’t let this one go. Y’all are on to something bigger than even I can imagine!! Only my truth.

Blessings guys!

Bret

#22

Hi Bret -

Good to hear from you again :slight_smile:

#23

Hi Andrew

I couldn’t agree more. I haven’t come across Bakunin before, but he sums up very forcefully (part of) the thinking behind a lot of thinking people’s rejection of God, in the West at least.

If folk have grown up with the authoritarian, judgemental portrait of God which the mainstream western churches have been selling for the past 1,500 years, it’s easy to see why they might be led to throw the baby out with the bathwater, as it were, and reject Christianity completely. If they’ve grown up hearing church leaders heaping coals of condemnation onto the heads of LGBT people, oppressing women and telling them that they’re going to burn in hell forever if they don’t turn and worship the God who sanctions, indeed commands, this hateful prejudice, it’s little wonder they’re not prepared to dig beneath the rhetoric to find out who Jesus really was, and what his true message is.

“Servitude is the true glory of God,” you say. I love that. Far too many alleged followers of Christ are so obsessed with ‘giving God the glory’, in a way I doubt very much he cares for much, if at all, they almost completely overlook the obvious reality of how he chose to manifest himself to humanity. They forget that God became incarnate not as a king, but as a humble, suffering servant.

It is these black-hearted Pharisees who create the Lennons and the Bakunins, all the Richard Dawkinses, Phillip Pullmans, Christopher Hitchenses and their professional God-hating ilk. Shame on them, I say.

Oh, and just to be clear, I never meant to imply that pain was “helpful for belief”. It isn’t. Yes, it is one of the most fearsome weapons in God’s armoury, but I don’t believe he ever deploys it wilfully. It is something he permits to be, for his own inscrutable - for now, for this life - reasons. No, what I was trying to delve into was whether the atheist’s contention that pain drives us to belief, as voiced by Lennon in the song, is valid.

I reckon it may well be. But that, in and of itself doesn’t, I don’t think, reveal much about the underlying truth of our beliefs. If God exists and some of us go to him to be cured of our pain, so be it. Why, after all, do we do anything that we do? CS Lewis talks about this in the The Problem of Pain, arguing that if God only accepted those who came to him with ‘high’ motives, as Kant, I believe, thought we should, we’d all be in serious trouble.

All the best

Johnny

#24

Thanks Professor… After MUCH thought and consideration I’m going to keep my mouth shut. In reality , I don’t have anything of substance to offer up, ONLY in my pea-picking brain. So my apologies, I’ll just continue to read along and learn for a change instead of adding my opinion, and that’s all it would be, my opinion. My dad used to say , “take the cotton out of your ears and shove it in your mouth, you just might learn something!!” Great advise Dad, so thanks for that.

Blessings,
Bret

#25

Bret, my man! :smiley:

If this thread achieves nothing other than drawing you out of your mountain lair, even for a short spell, it will have been worthwhile. It’s very important that when we speak about these things we do so honestly - and that’s something you show me the way on.

I get cheesed off with Christians who make out their lives are one endless round of campfire singalongs. Pain is part of all our lives, and the more honest we all are about that, the less traumatic it will be for us all.

I for one would love to hear more of your thoughts on this subject. So have a ponder, take your time, smoke a cigar, listen to some Sex Pistols or whatever it is you guys listen to these days :laughing: . Rest assured, whatever you decide to do is okay with me my friend. It’s always okay with me :smiley: .

Cheers

Johnny

#26

But y’ have to strike the right balance here :wink:

I always remember a spoof hymn by John Betjeman that goes -

I thank the good Lord for my boils
For my mental and bodily pains
For without them my faith all congeals
And I’m damned to hell’s ne’er ending flames

:laughing: :laughing:

#27

Professor and Johnny Boy…

Prof, I don’t know the meaning of the word “balance” and I had to look it up in the dictionary to spell it correctly!! :blush: :laughing: So IF you were looking to me for balance, not a chance Prof!! And Johnny, you are always so kind. I still think it best IF I keep my opinions to myself here. As YOU know, this IS a very hot topic for me. My dad used to say I had “hoof in mouth disease…” meaning I don’t have a governor on my fingers and say whatever it is that pops in my brain, and that has gotten me into a lot of trouble on this forum and elsewhere in my life. My dad also used to tell me that discretion is the better part of valour… I’m doing my very best to use discretion IF and when I write on this forum so I don’t inadvertently offend ANYONE. Maybe we will just email back and forth since you GET my crazies!!! :laughing: Thank you though for the sentiment, I appreciate it and you, my friend.

Many blessings,
Bret

#28

Good stuff here guys :slight_smile:

I might join in at some point if I think of something :wink: