I believe the division we see is part of plan a also. I see it as all part of the grand story, its quite similar to what happened in Israel, the story is being repeated.
Creation days:
1 light 1 moses/tabernacle
2 separation of waters 2 solomon/temple
3 earth/trees 3 zerubabel/3rd temple(including tabernacle as 1st)
4 lights 4 Jesus/sun, ecclesia/moon
5 birds 5 roman church
6 beasts/man 6 reformation
7 rest 7 reconciliation
The pattern repeats
1 moses/light-pure, 4 Jesus/lights-pure, 7 reconciliation
2 solomon/pagan mixing, 5 roman/pagan mixing
3 zerubabel/reformation, 6 the reformation
I’m sure its all coincidence but Jacob lived 147 years
Jesus came in the 4000 th year
we are dawning in the 7000th year
This pattern is also seen
Adam, cain, able, Seth
Noah, Japeth, Ham, Shem
if division isn’t a part of love in the temporal sense in the context of a sinful world then it should follow that GOD isn’t in complete control or a version of control whereby he both can and would want to counter it
this is still something I’m coming to terms with
Stuart,
I think I know where you’re coming from (not sure, of course). It makes sense to say that in an overall sense, God IS in control in that He both knows of the division and is quite capable of countering it (and WILL counter it at the right time). That said, I don’t think that, in a minute sense, it follows that division is His will. In an overall sense, He knows that it can be worked out to accomplish His will. His need to allow humankind to follow our own individualistic bent to the ultimate conclusion (save those who surrender to Him now) also requires Him, imo, to allow these divisions. Is it a part of our own realization process, by which we are matured in our sufferings? In other words, by which we learn and know in our very core that this (division) is a BAD thing?
He allows other horrible things, presumably for the good of those called (and scripture does clearly tell us that He commands all to repent and therefore it makes sense that ultimately, all are called in one group or another). So you have a very real point in saying that the divisions will serve His will. I believe you’re right. Everything allowed to occur will ultimately serve His will. That doesn’t mean that we, as His children, aren’t to fight those things we know to be evil. That too serves His will. If hunger is allowed, in His knowledge that it will ultimately work to the good, does that mean that I, confronted by a starving man, should not give him food and drink? And likewise, when we are confronted with divisiveness, shouldn’t we, following His wisdom as to the “how to” do our best to make peace by our words and actions?
I think that God has created the best possible world in which His will will ultimately prevail for the greatest joy and the least suffering possible in His creatures. We can’t do anything He hasn’t foreseen (or if you don’t believe in that degree of divine knowledge . . . we can’t do anything He can’t turn to advantage). Whatever we do to try to make peace or war, He will work together for the good. It falls to us to do the best things we know to do, as He guides and enables us by His Holy Spirit. In this way, I believe we cooperate with Him by being the branches to His vine and the conduit for His producing of fruit to eternal life.
So . . . my metaphysical musings, Bro. Best I can do, but He’s still working on me, as they say.
Love in Him, Cindy
Everything allowed to occur will ultimately serve His will. That doesn’t mean that we, as His children, aren’t to fight those things we know to be evil. That too serves His will. If hunger is allowed, in His knowledge that it will ultimately work to the good, does that mean that I, confronted by a starving man, should not give him food and drink? And likewise, when we are confronted with divisiveness, shouldn’t we, following His wisdom as to the “how to” do our best to make peace by our words and actions?
So . . . my metaphysical musings, Bro. Best I can do, but He’s still working on me, as they say.
Love in Him, Cindy
amen ! , so applying that sentiment to the issue of falsehood and the divisions it brings compared to unity in the truth , just how would you say we oppose evil ? ‘‘speaking the truth in love’’ per chance ? but just where do you ''draw the line as it were ?
this is yet another issue where one finds vastness in opinion , plus bearing in mind the original gist of the post
that GOD is in some form of control so how is this love
In ourselves alone, Stuart, it would be impossible to know what (and what not) to say. We as a people (the people of God) need to be led by the indwelling Holy Spirit every step of the way. In the case of UR, for an example, there may be a mention of ECT in our church gatherings. Should I confront that right then and there? I could. We speak out whenever we have something to say, so it wouldn’t be out of order. But would it be the right time? Even if we’re discussing some other subject, it COULD be the right time. Jesus leads our meetings (or that’s the goal), and He might want to lead us off into an unanticipated direction. The only way I can know is by the inner nudging of the Holy Spirit.
I generally tend to wait until God presents me with an opening if I’m going to disagree with a brother or sister. If it were an important matter that needed to be addressed (or at least, I felt that it needed to be), then I might, with God’s permission, set up a time to chat with them (or if it was a brother, ask one of the other brothers to consider doing so), and prayerfully broach the subject with them. Otherwise, I figure we’re each at a different point in our journey with our Lord and He knows just as well how to lead my sister into truth as He knows how to do it for me. If He wants to use me as an instrument for that, I’m available and (I hope) ready, but I don’t necessarily consider it my duty to set everyone straight who disagrees with me.
That doesn’t mean, btw, that I’m afraid to share what and how I believe. It just means that I don’t feel it’s up to me to change anyone’s mind. That’s the Holy Spirit’s job, and while I’ll do whatever He leads me to do, it’s not my mandate to set anybody straight. I’ve been wrong far too many times for that!
it’s not my mandate to set anybody straight. I’ve been wrong far too many times for that!
as we have all been ! but if truth is a part of ‘‘love’’ as I believe it is, is it not unloving to ever ‘‘bring it up’’ ?
not that I’m suggesting you take this approach !, but lets just sayfor the sake of the argument , the idea that you never
'‘feel’'the holy spirit lead you ! , perhaps he is leaving it up to us so to speak as to when to broach the issue
what also comes into this discussion is the idea of ‘‘loving GOD’’ more than your ‘‘brother’’ for example
if you were to come across a street preacher who was spitting hell fire at everyone going past and it was fairly plain to
you [and everybody else] that **all **he was doing was bring gross discredit to GOD and turning everyone off ! if you were to say nothing
as you felt nothing , wouldn’t that be unloving
Stuart,
Clearly in a case like that, I might have something to say. I’ve been known to wait around until after a tent crusade in order to confront the evangelist concerning his unfaithfulness to his wife – it’s not like the Holy Spirit never speaks to me. But if a brother or sister privately believes in ECT and isn’t spouting off on it all the time, I don’t feel that I’m automatically deputized to set them straight. If we’re conversing over coffee and the talk drifts to that subject, I won’t hesitate to share my beliefs (and this has happened on several occasions). If a friend doesn’t believe Jesus is the Son of God, I will make sure the conversation “drifts” over to this subject and lovingly explain to her that while I realize her husband is a problem, Jesus IS in fact God the Son and not just another “prophet” of Islam. (and yes, this also has happened)
The thing is, this last-mentioned problem is an essential article of faith and the dear sister in question had asked whether we might just talk about God and not so much about Jesus in our gatherings. Alas, she is no longer meeting with us, though fellowship hasn’t been cut off. We still love one another, but she is too frightened of her (now ex) husband to have much to do with our assembling together. This was a situation that needed to be dealt with as she talked about it all the time and wanted to remove Jesus from the fellowship. While she was and is welcome to meet with us, it had to be understood that the whole point is Jesus and of course her requests couldn’t be granted.
I’m not afraid to say what needs to be said. I allow myself to be guided by the Holy Spirit, and of course by those things which I know, from the word, need to be done. I don’t confront everything that I consider to be an error in belief. I know how many times I myself have been wrong, and how Jesus has gently led me by the hand deeper and deeper into truth, and I trust Him to also do this for my brothers and sisters. I’m not so much worried about what, precisely, they believe, as I am about Who, precisely, they are following. If they’re following Jesus, He will lead them into all truth. I trust Him to do this.
So . . . I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.
Be blessed, Brother
Cindy
perhaps GOD has hardened them into falsehood [temporarily] for a number of reasons one of them being to separate and scatter the sheep [temporarily] out of love and to test the fortitude of those who cling lovingly to the truth
kinda sums it up , love is in some respects vastly different from what Christians expect even I suspect some members in this forum
love sometimes wounds ! so looking at the subject of to edify for example , does this mean simply being ‘‘nice’’ ? or does edification out of love at times require for example , abruptness
Calling those who kill, steal and destroy the lives of ‘His Chosen’, children of the Serpent, is not being rude or unloving. Love does not rejoice in evil and it most certainly will not give it empower evil by ignoring it.
Proverbs 27:5
Better is open rebuke than hidden love.
Proverbs 27:5
Better is open rebuke than hidden love.
says it quiet well rebukes by their very nature aren’t particularly ‘‘nice’’ even a gentle one and a rebuke can be
[should be] bore out of love so to rebuke is to love
yet another facet of love unearthed !!! that seemingly goes against the grain
thank-you for joining in.
I’m surprised with such a monumentally important question as this for it touches on the very nature of GOD and the most important topic in the scriptures that nobody else has anything to contribute
‘‘GOD is love’’
Amos 9:4 , any more takers
Can anyone help me with this. Hos 9:15The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels.
Does this contradict what Gods love for the world is? A hell believer showed this to me and it stopped me in my tracks.
I thought God loves all His creation without ecception?
the whole message of Hosea is that adulterous Israel will be reconciled to her Husband
if a wife was adulterous to the most virtuous and loving man alive, would he not get angry and use words like hate? but hate, as we all know, is very close to love. it implies you are still engaging with the person and that there is hope.
loathing, abhorrence, etc…those are far more worrying words to use…though i’m sure some ECT types could come up with examples of those if pressed.
for example, i loathe x factor, american idle (on purpose), etc. this means i avoid thinking or speaking of them. they are irreconcilable to me.
also, i abhore fungus.
i generally hate humanity though (selfish, grasping, sheeplike species that we are), and while i do have the urge now and then to shun us all (as much as possible), i believe that one day love will be there, and so there is hope…
…it strikes me that this is somewhat of an odd post, but i hope it makes some sense
Keep reading …
Hsa 14:4 ¶ I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
This is a typical pattern in the OT prophets.
This might be helpful as well: An article on the Hebrew idiom "I love X but hate Y"
Sonia
the pattern fits in with Psalm 30:5. God is angry for a moment, but His favour is for life.
it’s a style of speaking that expresses His passion…hatred for sin and injustice and temporarily for those committing it…but ultimately love for those who have undergone judgement and refining
Can anyone help me with this. Hos 9:15The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels.
Does this contradict what Gods love for the world is? A hell believer showed this to me and it stopped me in my tracks.
I thought God loves all His creation without ecception?
The Scripture are to be taken as a whole and not in part. When doing this, you find Scriptures that show that God only hates for a moment but His love is eternal, never ends, never fails, etc.
So your friend needs to be stopping in his tracks when you show him Scriptures like:
Isaiah 54:8
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
What about the Canaanites?