Have you ever noticed that Jesus never represents the Father as having killed anyone or commanded his people to fight or destroy other nations?
Rather He describes Him as kind both to ungrateful and to evil people, and states that if his hearers do the same they will show themselves to be sons of the Most High (Luke 6:35)
Jesus was Another divine Individual EXACTLY like his Father. He was the exact imprint of the Father’s essence (Heb 1:3). He said, “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” Yet Jesus never ordered his disciples to kill anyone or to participate in war against an enemy, to punish rebellious children by stoning them to death, or to cut of women’s hands for particular offenses, as Moses claimed God did. Why not if He is exactly like the Father?
According to Moses, God presumably told the Israelites to stone to death adulterous people. An adulterous woman was brought to Jesus by the Pharisees who then asked Him, “Moses commanded that such a one be stoned, what do you say?” If Jesus had followed the laws of Moses, He would have said, “The law is clear. She must be stoned,” and probably would have cast the first stone Himself. But instead He shamed the Pharisees into going away without another word. Then He told the woman that He didn’t condemn her. He simply told her to go on her way and to stop sinning.
In Deuteronomy 5:1-22, the laws that Moses was originally given were the ten commandments. Verse 22 goes on to say that “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more.” Again, in Deuteronomy 10:12-22,the essence of the law is stated. These are the same as what Jesus spoke of. I would say that over time, man began adding to this. Some of the things added may not have even been from Moses, or they could have been misinterpretations of things that Moses had said. Who knows? For example, Leviticus 11:13 says " And these you shall regard as an abomination among the birds; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle,the vulture, the buzzard." I think this has a spiritual meaning to it. However, many foods were banned from being eaten. This may have come from the fact that eating such things was not healthy, but I don’t doubt that some food laws came about through misinterpretation. Another example might be circumcision. Did God really require this? As Paidion pointed out about the laws of Connecticut, we see how things can be twisted into something other than what was originally intended. The Constitution and the laws of this country are also a prime example of how all of this occurs. It starts out simple and ends up to be so complex one cannot even move without breaking some law or another and often unknowingly. I don’t think anyone can possibly fulfill all of the thousands upon thousands of laws we have on the books today. I believe this is one of the reasons Jesus came to earth, to separate God’s laws from man’s laws and bring them back to what they originally were in the beginning.
On another note, I see what Eaglesway is saying. I think there do come times when our sins “pile up to heaven”. These are judgment times when this law of God must be fulfilled: Deuteronomy 30:17-18 “But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish.” We do have a right to protect ourselves against evilness and to bring to justice those who commit evil acts.Jesus says in Luke 22:36 “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a sack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.”
That statement you quote taken out of the context of all I wrote certainly does seem ignorant doesnt it? The lesser light I was speaking of was in comparison to your “gnostic position”- diminishing the OT. The Old Covenant is certainly a lesser light than the New.
I clearly see the difference between the law and grace, and between Jesus and Moses. I simply see the nature, origins and validity of the law and the histories differently than you do. As I posted, since the advent of Christ a greater law(the perfect law of liberty,love through the indwelling Christ) has come to the forefront in the power of the Holy Spirit.
The difference between our positions, as I see it, is that you see Moses and the law as “not good”, in error. Yet Paul says it was good and of God in its time but now it is dissolved in the body of Jesus Christ. Only by the breaking of that body could the ability to walk in the new creation succeed and the Holy Spirit be poured out into the world. Before that it was a different world. You see an opposition between Christ and Moses. I see Jesus transcending and fulfilling Moses. I see Jesus speaking with Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration- the law the prophets merged into Messiah’s gospel.
Of course Jesus opposed the stoning of the adulterous woman…He came to abolish the law and conquer death. Paul calls it the former covenant. he clearly defines it as inferior, but he does not at any point invalidate it as to its purpose for its time in the administration of the fulness of times. Paul says that the old testament saints saw that they were serving us, and that they could not be completed without us, and that they would have loved to have been able to see plainly what we see plainly. They were incomplete, even as we are also, but we are much further along because of the advent.
Where I do agree with you in some small measure is that Moses struck the rock, so he could not enter in. that is the nature of the law. it strikes the rock, instead of just speaking to it. Jesus is the promised land. Moses could see it from afar- but he could not enter, just as the law YHWH gave through him was only a shadow and a schoolmaster preparing for a much greater revelation to come.
i dont think we have any disagreement as to the greater glory of the revelation of God in Christ. We have a serious disagreement about the law and Moses and to what extent he was anointed and equipped by God to deliver the revelation for His time.
Think about it. A two million person camp. Moving through the wilderness through the midst of pagan tribes, hated by every kingdom, without a home, without a central location, following the pillar of fire and smoke. Moses was saved from death, prepared in Pharaoh’s house, was the hand of God to release the israelites by signs and wonders. parted the red sea by God’s outstretched hand, met YHWH face to face at the burning bush, received the tablets written in fire, and was the meekest man on the face of the earth, yet everyday he met God face to face in the tent of meeting.
The earth opened up and swallowed those who sought to usurp his mantle when he opened the question before God and the great congregation as to whether he was God’s chosen deliverer. Miriam was struck with leprosy for getting catty behind his back.Aaron’s sons were struck down for offering a careless offering before the Lord.
But then I know a lot of people think that’s all hyperbole. I think the I AM is not who some people want Him to be and they are offended at Him, but He Is Who He Is- not some lesser god.
At any rate- we aren’t likely to agree on this one. Peace out
I do think it is possible there are interpolations and mistranslations in the law. I forget the number of traditions and statutes the Pharisees added to it in their practices but it was a large number. As i said before tho, i see the scriptures as perhaps tattered a little around the edges and bearing a few holes due to the ravages of time and the imperfections of men.
i am sure, for instance, that “hell” and “eternal damnation” and “forever” and the many little twists that english “interpreters” added in the guise of translating the New testament are accompanied in like manner in the Old Testament. The Septuagint was translated by Greek Hebrews and who knows where they nudged the translations in order to interpret their pharasaical ideas.
But i definitely dont think the integrity of the cloth is as shredded as Paidon does, and I think the histories are largely true, not legends or cultural mind-speak. But then, I think the Red Sea actually parted, and the first-born of Israel actually died, and frogs fell in a plague upon the land of Egypt- all by the hand of YHWH.
The lesser light I was speaking of was in comparison to your “gnostic position”- diminishing the OT. The Old Covenant is certainly a lesser light than the New.