Ah, of course, that makes sense!
Thanks, that is helpful, I hadn’t thought of it that way
I can see that in relation to words like aion/aionas/aionon/aionios, but how could a phrase like “unto ages og ages” have a meaning that has more to do with quality than duration?
It’s that phrase, and it’s scriptural application to both God and punishment, that we’re talking about here.
I did, and maybe this answers my question to Alex.
tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
To anyone who really knows Greek, is it possible that living “for the ages of ages” means living for the goal to be reached through these ages (much as I might say I’m living to see my mother again, or someone else might say that they’re living to see their retirement)?
Could the statement that God “lives to the ages of ages” mean that He lives for the salvation of all?
And could punishment to the ages of ages mean that those punished are punished with this goal in mind?
I freely admit that I don’t know Greek well enough to answer this question, but does anyone know if such a reading (interpretation) is possible?
I am not a Greek scholar either, but I think your idea may have some weight to it. When someone says “I live for the days when peace is on the earth”, they are not saying that they live only when peace reigns, they are saying that their goel in mind is to see those days come to fruition. Maybe God lives to see the goal of the ‘ages of ages’ fulfilled because then he will be all in all. Is that what you are saying Michael? If so then it makes sense of Revelation 14, the reason the Lamb is presiding over the touchstoning of the wicked is because the purpose in mind(namely all to be saved) must be accomplished. The smoke of their touch-stoning rises for the ‘ages of ages’. The interesting thing is that whenever a precious stone is touchstoned smoke rises as a result of it, the whole purpose of it is to show how precious the metal really is. So yesyou might be onto something there 
Thank you awakeningaletheia.
I wish someone who knows more about Greek than we do would comment on this.
It is true that “εἰς” in Greek (normally translated as “into”), does suggest a movement toward or into something. In William D. Mounce’s Basics of Biblical Greek, most chapters begin with an “exegetical insight” by some Greek or New Testament scholar. The “exegetical insight” of Chapter 8 (Prepositions) deals with the use of prepositions in I Cor 5:5. It was written by Craig L. Blomberg. Blomberg mentions that “εἰς” can denote either result or purpose. In the verse in question, he believes it denotes result. He quotes Gordon Fee, “What the grammar suggests, then, is the ‘destruction of the flesh’ is the anticipated result of the man’s being put back into Satan’s domain, while the express purpose of the action is his redemption.”
Michael, perhaps either result or purpose could apply to the phrase in question. Michael, you asked:
As a convinced believer in the reconciliation of all to God, I wish I could congratulate you for this remarkable insight. But I must express my doubts that your understanding is correct. The best way to see how a Greek word or phrase is used, is to look up many occurences of it.
I think the Greek phrase “εἰς τους αἰωνας των αἰωνων” (literally “into the ages of the ages”) is a koine Greek idiom that was understood in the koine period(300 B.C to 300 A.D.)
Here are a few occurences of the phrase in the New Testament:
Ephesians 3:21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, εἰς τους αἰωνας των αἰωνων. Amen.
Philippians 4:20 To our God and Father be glory εἰς τους αἰωνας των αἰωνων. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17 To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory εἰς τους αἰωνας των αἰωνων. Amen.
Hebrews 1:8 Now to the son [he says] Your throne is God εἰς τον αἰωνα του αἰωνος.
1 Peter 5:11 To him be the dominion εἰς τους αἰωνας των αἰωνων. Amen.
Revelation 1:6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion εἰς τους αἰωνας των αἰωνων. Amen.
Notice the expression is a little different in Heb 1:8. It means “into the age of the age”. That same expression is frequently used in the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament into Greek. I can quote some of these if you think it would help.
But right now, because of their usage, I do not see either phrase as oriented toward a goal.
But meaning what?
Forever?
Yes, please.
But if I understand you, there doesn’t seem to be any grammatical or linguistic reason such phrases couldn’t be oriented toward a goal (at least in some of their occurences)?
Since there are more accurate words to describe ‘forever’ than aionian, such as athanasia (Undying, Immortality), Aidios (Always, Eternal), anaideia (Persistence), pantote (Always, At all times, Ever), ametakinētos (Firmly Persistent), diapantos (Always, Continually) etc. I don’t find much argument now in using aion or aionios to denote ‘forever’.
Thank you Craig, but there are other threads on the meaning of the words aion and aionios.
The question raised by the opening post here is the meaning of the phrase “εἰς τους αἰωνας των αἰωνων” (and why it’s apparently used of the duration of God’s life in passages like Rev. 10:6?)
Michael, it is very simple, the ‘Good News bible’ mistranslated ‘living forever and ever’.
But it’s the same phrase used (in the Greek text) of punishment (and of God’s life in passages like Rev. 10:6.)
It’s not enough to say the Good News Bible (along with the KJV, NIV, NEB, RSV, etc., etc.) mistranslated the phrase.
What does it mean?
It means from age to age. It is just as it says. It is not talking about eternity, it is not talking about perpetuity, nor is it talking about an endless duration of any sort. It is what it is. God lives from age to age, He is always in the present and from our perspective He is always before us and after us. He who was and is and is to come; day to day.
So if it was speaking of something at is immortal without end, we know intrinsically that it is ‘forever’ and If it is talking about something that has a beginning and an end, it is ‘not forever’; however all those things exist from age to age if until it ends.
That might make sense (but it still seems like such an understatement when applied to God.)
Thank you.
Hi Michael,
Here are a few verses from the Septuagint which you requested. They are pretty representative of all which are found in the Septuagint.
Exodus 15:18 The Lord reigns τον αιωνα και επ αιωνα και ετι (an age and above an age and yet [an age])
Psalms 9:5 You have rebuked the nations, and the ungodly one has perished; you have blotted out their name εις τον αιωνα (into the age) , also εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος (into the age of the age)
Psalms 10:16 The Lord shall reign εις τον αιωνα (into the age) also εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος (into the age of the age)…
Psalms 19:9 The fear of the lord is pure, enduring εις αιωνα αιωνος (into an age of an age)…
Psalms 21:4 He asked life from you, and you gave him length of days εις αιωνα αιωνος (into an age of an age).
Psalms 21:6 For you will give him a blessing εις αιωνα αιωνος (into an age of an age)…
Exodus 15:18 The Lord reigns τον αιωνα και επ αιωνα και ετι (an age and above an age and yet [an age])
Psalms 9:5 You have rebuked the nations, and the ungodly one has perished; you have blotted out their name εις τον αιωνα (into the age) , also εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος (into the age of the age)
Psalms 10:16 The Lord shall reign εις τον αιωνα (into the age) also εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος (into the age of the age)…
Psalms 19:9 The fear of the lord is pure, enduring εις αιωνα αιωνος (into an age of an age)…
Psalms 21:4 He asked life from you, and you gave him length of days εις αιωνα αιωνος (into an age of an age).
Psalms 21:6 For you will give him a blessing εις αιωνα αιωνος (into an age of an age)…
Psalms 45:6 Your throne is God εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος (into the age of the age); a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.
Psalms 45:17 They shall make mention of your name from generation to generation: therefore shall the nations give thanks to you εις τον αιωνα (into the age) and εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος (into the age of the age).
Psalms 48:14 οτι ουτος εστιν ο θεος ο θεος ημων εις τον αιωνα και εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος αυτος ποιμανει ημας εις τους αιωνας Psalms 48:14 (LXXE) (47:14) Because this is God, our God εις τον αιωνα (into the age) and εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος (into the age of the age). This one will shepherd us εις τους αιωνας (into the ages).
I’m no Greek scholar or any form of expert whatsoever about Revelation, but it seems that there are ways in which some of the passages in Revelation need not necessarily pose a significant problem:
Firstly, as a preamble, I would like to quote the book, “The Living World of the New Testament” (Howard Clark Kee and Franklin W. Young, page 459):
Also, I would like to say that it seems to me (and this book above I think suggests this) that Revelation is cyclical; it repeats themes using different metaphors and language and different ‘parables’ (for want of a better word). In this, it seems to me that many of the events alluded to are described figuratively rather than strictly literally, given their heavy usage of numbers and imagery; of course, this doesn’t make the book any less inspired or the Word of God (just as the Parable of the Good Samaritan is not ‘lesser’ because it is figurative). I could then make a (very tentative indeed) conclusion here that the nature of one ‘cycle’ of the overall message may help with interpretation of another.
Another interesting feature is the comment in Revelation 15:1, as below:
This, at least at first sight, implies some sort of end to calamity brought about by God, and hence to God’s punishment; of course, I would say that it is for a corrective and loving ultimate purpose. At a later point (Revelation 16:17), the text describes:
This again at least implies that something is completed, i.e. possibly God’s wrath (which I would say is, when understood, a form of especially zealous and proactive love) has been finished, having done all its work of correction. Of course, this point is not the end of Revelation, but this event at least implies some sort of final completion in the later forms of judgement also. I would say that this feature is also often described in the Old Testament, i.e. reinvogoration following destruction for Israel (context for quotes not given):
Because I have sinned against him,
I will bear the LORD’s wrath,
until he pleads my case
and upholds my cause.
He will bring me out into the light;
I will see his righteousness.
(Micah 7:9)
31 For no one is cast off
by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to anyone.
(Lamentations 3:31-33)
As for the instances translated “for ever and ever”, I would first like to say that I would think that Greek doesn’t use completely similar figures of speech to modern English (unsuprisingly) and hence I don’t know if we can presume they used repeated 'ever’s as we do (i.e. in forever and ever) in the form of “into the eons of the eons” (eis ton aionas ton aionon). As I mentioned, know very little about Greek, but I could make a few observations:
-
As I just said, it is difficult to presume that, just because ‘eons’ is repeated, that it necessarily takes on the English form ‘forever and ever’, since the language is different and ‘eon’ cannot easily be made synonymous with ‘ever’ (especially with the plural form, since ‘evers’ does not make very much sense). Hence, other possible definitions are available, such as pertaining to a specifically important age, but not with the duration of that age necessarily.
-
I don’t know if it’s a common Greek time expression, but the “into” [the eons of the eons] used instead of “for” [the eons of the eons] may be significant. This is used in Galatians 1:5 for the glory of God, but it is possible that the ‘into’ designates that the described event does not have to take up the whole period of time, although it can. For example, it could be a duration of 1 year ‘into the eons of the eons’, although I am unsure whether the Greek is used in this way; it could be an inspecific term.
There are many other possible points to mention, such as (as a tentative possibility):
- One of the ‘for ever and ever’ in Revelation 14:11 (“into eons of eons” this time) refers to those who receive the mark of the beast or worship the beast.
- However, unless this has already taken place, such a punishment would only be applicable to a short timespan of people who have had access to the beast. This would hence not include today, unless the beast represents something that is already on earth, and ‘worship’ and ‘the mark’ refer to other concepts.
- This metaphorical approach is possible, since the beast itself is very elaborately described and seems highly figurative (similar to the woman for Babylon)
- If this is the case, the beast and the mark of the beast, and the false prophet, would have a non-literal meaning (especially as the ‘number of the beast’ can be calculated). They may have been used to refer to a Roman emporer (who may have demanded worship), or they may just refer to general harmful activity and not accepting the Gospel.
- The allusion to the rising smoke may thus have a degree of metaphorical content, or it is possible that the ‘torment’ as corrective discipline only persists as long as the individual is desiring to ‘worship’ the beast (whatever this might be referring to), into the eons of the eons as long as it is necessary, and that then the waste (the smoke) would continue rising up after this (into the eons of the eons, for an indefinite period of time)?
- Alternatively, the ‘torment’ may only be of the harmful desires of a person, so that that is burnt off and left behind (metaphorically), so that the new person can emerge, possibly vaguely similar to Paul recommending handing a person over ‘to Satan’.
Overall, the exact meaning of “into the eons of the eons” is unclear, but, even if it did refer to ‘forever’ (which is very tentative indeed), the effect of this, it seems, would still be unclear and could be interpreted in many ways, especially since there are few instances of the phrase referring to punishment. It may be possible, however, to use some of the repeated assertions to UR in Corinthians and Romans (especially Romans 11:32), to interpret these difficult aspects of Revelation, in which case a more uniform concept can be supported in favour of the UR position. This is emphasised since it seems to me that UR is relatively easily defensible by external argument, where it would make sense given that God wants us to make use of our intellectual capabilities (since the Bible often seems to allude to the usage of human reason constructively (e.g. Solomon’s wisdom, Paul persuading the Jews that visit at the end of Acts etc.).
Anyway, the whole picture of things is looking very bright indeed! We can trust God that He is the source of all love, and He is the source of all light, and that He will win the victory!
Blessings to everyone, in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour! 
Forever and ever is nonsensical english anyway. Infinity +1? I think we’ve accepted it as a normal statement, but I’d say the source of this acceptance comes from the bible translations (and not some secular source), since it is the primary source of literary inspiration in western culture.
Therefore God is eternal
What do you take the phrase to mean?
How can it be used of the duration of God’s life if it doesn’t (at least in those passages where it’s used of God) denote endless duration?
And is it ever used (in the Greek N.T,. the LXX, Philo, Josephus, the Greek Fathers, etc.) of the Temple, the Old Covenant, or anything that clearly didn’t (or couldn’t) last “forever and ever”?
P.S. I don’t know if this is relevant here (and I thought someone already mentioned it), but Isa. 54:5 says:
**For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth. **
The word translated “earth” is “eretz,” and can also mean land (and both would be an understatement of God’s domain.)
The more I think about it, the more that might make some sense.
Thank you.
I emailed the question in the OP to a Roman Catholic friend who believes in UR (I know that may seem an oximoron to some, but he mantains that the Catholic Church has never dogmatically defined the meaning of “eternal” and “everlasting” in reference to punishment), and received this rather lenthy reply.
[size=150]There is a problem with quoting single verses and then claiming that if they use the same word, or as here, phrase, they necessarily mean the same thing. The word ‘eternal’ or the phrase ‘forever and ever’ most certainly do not have the same meaning in every context, as a simple concordance study will show.
For example, look at Genesis 17: 1 - 14 (highlighting with bold print is mine):
And after he began to be ninety and nine years old, the Lord appeared to him: and said unto him: I am the Almighty God: walk before me, and be perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee: and I will multiply thee exceedingly. Abram fell flat on his face. And God said to him: I AM, and my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name be called any more Abram: but thou shalt be called Abraham: because I have made thee a father of many nations. And I will make thee increase exceedingly, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and between thy seed after thee in their generations, by a perpetual covenant: to be a God to thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give to thee, and to thy seed, the land of thy sojournment, all the land of Canaan for a perpetual possession, and I will be their God. Again God said to Abraham: And thou therefore shalt keep my covenant, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant which you shall observe, between me and you, and thy seed after thee: All the male kind of you shall be circumcised: And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, that it may be for a sign of the covenant between me and you. An infant of eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations: he that is born in the house, as well as the bought servant shall be circumcised, and whosoever is not of your stock: And my covenant shall be in your flesh for a perpetual covenant. The male, whose flesh of his foreskin shall not be circumcised, that soul shall be destroyed out of his people: because he hath broken my covenant.
NOTE: I have quoted the Douay Rheims version above which uses the word ‘perpetual’. The Vulgate reads aeternam; the Septuagint reads aionios; and the Hebrew says olam, which the King James Version correctly renders ‘everlasting.’ What all these terms have in common is both an absolute and an indefinite sense of duration; with respect to God the sense is absolute, as in Genesis 21: 33: Abraham planted a grove in Bersabee, and there called upon the name of the Lord God eternal. But in the passage above, although the same word is used, we must necessarily understand the relative or indefinite use of ‘everlasting.’ From our standpoint in the history of salvation we see clearly that the possession of the land of Canaan and the necessity of circumcision as the sign of the covenant was not perpetual or everlasting in the absolute sense, but only in the relative sense: lasting a long but indefinite period of time, the limits of which are determined solely by God, whose covenant it is.
In general, an adjective or adjectival phrase takes its meaning from the word which it modifies. Applying ‘eternal’ to God can only mean eternal in the absolute sense. Applying ‘eternal’ or ‘forever and ever’ to the life which Christ died to give us is likewise absolute because the very nature of that life is union with Jesus Christ who is the co-eternal Son of God made man for our salvation. But applying the same absolute sense to the adjectival phrase ‘forever and ever’ to the torments of the damned is an error; only the relative and indefinite sense can apply here.
Why is this? Because if one applies the absolute sense of ‘eternal’ to the torments of the damned, one makes impossible of fulfillment the many passages throughout the Bible which clearly teach universal reconciliation. (Click on the link for a long list of such passages.)
For the sake of this discussion I’d like to hone in on Apocalypse/Revelation 20 in a more comprehensive and less fundamentalistic manner:
And there came down fire from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and the devil, who seduced them, was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where both the beast and the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Continuing on in the same chapter we read:
And I saw a great white throne, and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was no place found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.
Note well that the pool of fire is called ‘the second death.’ Those held captive in hell and death are at the general judgment cast into the pool or lake of fire which is the second death.
But does the second death last forever in the absolute sense, co-eternal with the everlasting kingdom of God? This cannot be. For if the second death were of equal duration with the kingdom of God, then death at its most terrible will reign forever and ever without end! Yet it is precisely this which St Paul assures us will not be:
But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep: For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead. And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But every one in his own order: the firstfruits Christ, then they that are of Christ, who have believed. Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue. For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet. And the enemy death shall be destroyed last. (1 Corinthians 15: 20 - 26.)
Now there are several ways that universal reconciliation is stated here: As in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. Note the all… all. We’re not dealing with an adjective here but a noun: All those who in Adam have been subject to death shall be made alive in Christ. Yet not all at once, but in three distinct ranks or orders:
1.) ‘Christ the First-fruits’ when he rose on the third day;
2.) Then ‘those who have believed’ at the time of his coming.
3.) Finally ‘the rest’ of those who have been subject to death. This is translated ‘the end’ but a commonly documented usage means the remainder, the rest, and that usage fits best here.
Now if the remainder of mankind subject to death in Adam is to be made alive in Christ along with those who have believed (although in a distinct rank), how could the second death, being tormented in the lake of fire, be eternal in the absolute sense of that word? In that case death would reign eternally and never be destroyed, canceling out what St Paul declared: And the enemy death shall be destroyed last.
However, if we put this declaration of St Paul in an overlay pattern with St John’s statement that being cast into the lake of fire is the second death, it becomes clear that the second death shall be destroyed as the final enemy, and all its inhabitants - Satan and his angels, the Antichrist and his false prophet, and all the wicked, having been punished according to their works - all shall be brought to life in Christ, having finally and freely chosen to be reconciled. Then, as St Paul triumphantly says:
For he hath put all things under his feet. And whereas he saith, All things are put under him; undoubtedly, he is excepted, who put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.[/size]
Is it true that the same language of the Revelation torment passages is used in Isaiah about a punishment that was over long ago?
I’m asking, not asserting- does anyone have insight, pro universalist or con?
I once wrote this paper, maybe it is of some use for the one or another, I would also appreciate critical statements
John-of-Damascus-use-of-aion.pdf (163 KB)