The Evangelical Universalist Forum

God's Love: Different from Ours?

Evangelical Universalism
#1

God expects us to love the unlovable, do good to those who abuse us and spitefully use us, persecute and execute us, lead us as sheep to the slaughter all day long. That’s a tall order. Does He show the way, or does His mercy come to an end upon the physical death of the human being who never knew Him?

When we die and “go to heaven,” will we rejoice in the torments of the damned because they glorify God? Will we become like God in this? Or if God’s like that, do we WANT to become like Him?

Please do keep in mind the above when responding to those who agree with the second paragraph, btw. We wouldn’t want to be unloving either. :wink: My thesis is that most of these folks don’t think things through and don’t see that the things they say they believe go against the love they actually hold in their hearts from God. With notable and sad, sad, sad exceptions, of course, but even these are TRYING to honor God the best they can.

So yes, show the other guys they’re wrong – but do it nicely.

#2

Reminds me of

which shows we’re imitating the Father’s love/mercy.

No, I hope not, & no!

Amen sister!

#3

When I read the title of the thread it struck me that since God is substantially different from His own creation there, in my mind, must be ways in which He can love but we cannot. For instance, I doubt anyone can love in the absolute way in which He loves. Can I truly love others without any selfish motif, continuously? How can I love a ‘Hitler’ like person?

Nevertheless, I feel the burden of the call in Scripture to strive to love others, especially fellow believers, since God does love us. This is why I work in Aged Care in Australia. It gives me an avenue to demonstrate Christian love - some older people can make this difficult for a variety of reason (as do many younger people in other contexts so lets not get caught up in ageism). I have become good at turning the other cheek. Yet I know that I can never do this with the perfection that God does.

Not sure what to make of the second paragraph. Any Scripture references to dwell upon?

#4

Ah, I perceive that you are not a Calvinist. :laughing: That’s okay – I’m not either. Basically, Calvinist doctrine (of the “pure” sort) requires that God has created some people for the purpose of glorifying Him by suffering eternally in conscious torment, and that the redeemed will rejoice in this and even enjoy witnessing the suffering of the damned.

But yes, I agree that God’s love is far greater than ours, though I’d also say, not different from the way He has commanded (and enables) us to love. Alex recently posted a link to an article on that topic you might enjoy. Here it is: The Topography Of Divine Love: A Response To Jeff Jordan . I thought it excellent. Or if you prefer something (far) less scholarly, here’s a link to my blog post of similar name: journeyintotheson.com/2013/0 … from-mans/ This is the thing that instigated this post. It went to twitter (I’ve set them to be posted there automatically) and a Calvinist attacked me for being a heretic over it. Unfortunately he wanted to stick with twitter comments and wouldn’t discuss it at the blog. :unamused: Oh well . . . .

Thanks for your comment :slight_smile:

Cindy

#5

In an effort to explain how a “loving” God could consign anyone to torment forever there has been a trend of defining Hell as a place that “we choose” and as being somehow a kinder alternative to the wicked being in the presence of God. Like in C.S.Lewis’ the Great Divorce, people would rather be in their sin than be delivered from it and “Hell” is a torment of one’s own making and choosing. I call this “the mitigation of Hell”. It is an attempt, weak attempt at removing God from any blame for Hell. Of course, scripture presents people being judged and punished by God, not people “choosing” judgement or punishment.

#6

Thanks Alex and Cindy for the link
willamette.edu/~ttalbott/Jor … ersion.pdf
to the article on God’s love by Thomas Talbott. An excellent read.

#7

do you really want my answer Cindy ? :smiley:

#8

Well I don’t know, Stuart. Do I? :laughing:

#9

most christians to one degree or another and clearly some far more than others have a stiff necked one dimensional view of love

in that, they only see love as being ‘‘nice’’ , soft, fluffy, always polite, always gentle ! if thats the case how can one arrive at a coherent view of GOD given the old testament historical accounts and some future ones :smiling_imp: thats why I would like to suggest so many christians and a good amount of universalists struggle with the GOD of the old testament and the Jesus of the new :astonished:

so to answer your question the answer is Y E S

#10

Ah . . . okay, I see why you said that now. :wink: In fact I probably didn’t state my question as well as I should have. Jesus tells us to love our enemies so that we will be like our Father in heaven. Paul and John both give pretty extensive descriptions of love. I would contend that those descriptions, from scripture, do define God’s love as well as the love He is forming in us. Yet some say that God’s love involves ect or anni. I’m not sure those viewpoints can be reconciled with a God whose love never fails.

Now as to your points, I don’t necessarily agree or disagree, but whether you are right or whether you are mistaken in your views, you still hold that God’s love never fails. You just see a lot of tough love along the way, maybe more than some do – maybe indeed more than there WILL turn out to be – or maybe not. So essentially the love He commands/calls forth in us is in its essence LOVE, and not “holy” hatred.

#11

it would appear that you also grossly misrepresent my position Cindy ! who said anything about ‘‘hatred’’ ? when GOD brought warfare was he ‘‘hating’’ his enemies or loving them ?, if you say ‘‘hating’’ you aren’t being consistent, if you hold onto a view that says GOD always acts out of his love but hold to a soft version of love then you will most likely struggle with all of GOD’s violence :smiley: :wink: :astonished:

#12

Stuart,

In my reply I was not attempting to represent YOUR position at all. I was trying to represent the position I disagree with. Which is not your position. I don’t disagree with your position. I don’t think you endorse the “holy hatred” idea. I do not necessarily agree with your view of the old testament or of the way the fulfillment of eschatalogical prophecies will look. That doesn’t mean I think you endorse the “holy hatred” thing. I don’t think that at all. I meant that to illustrate the viewpoint which I feel certain we BOTH disagree with. If we have different ideas as to eschatology and the meaning of some OT writings, that’s another point entirely.

Whether we agree or disagree on those things I understand that you do not think God literally hates (in a permanent sense) some of the people He created.

#13

I do not necessarily agree with your view of the old testament or of the way the fulfillment of eschatalogical prophecies will look.

what view of the old testament are you referring to ?, or for that matter eschatology ? I have nowhere emphatically stated ‘‘my’’ view

I understand that you do not think God literally hates (in a permanent sense) some of the people He created.

I do believe the biblical notion is ‘‘loving the person hating the sin’’

but that idea is very much different from (the way most people view ‘‘love’’) for loving the person while hating the sin can require at times, what would be viewed by most as being, ‘‘unloving’’ :wink:

I do agree with the biblical descriptions you mention, however if all you ever do is read whats on the surface you will fail to see just how deep love goes through the biblical narrative :exclamation: you need to stick your head over the edge of the boat and place it just under the surface of the water ! you might just be able to see the bottom !

love has many facets Cindy ! and any version of ‘‘love’’ that lacks intelligence ultimately ends up resembling stupidity :imp:

#14

perhaps I should continue the conversation in a new post :smiley: :laughing: :smiling_imp:

#15

Because it’s impossible to love the unlovable, God doesn’t ask us to do it. Rather, he asks us to love our enemies. This means there is something in our worst enemy that is actually worth loving. It is worth loving because it is born of God. Our job is to find this divine spark and blow it into flame.

#16

That speaks volumes AllanS. Thanks for the tip!

Michael in Barcelona