The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Hallowe'en

Evangelical Universalism
#21

I think those little urchins who beg for money in the UK need some education in good old fashioned American civility :slight_smile: (It’s turned out that way because it’s not a native tradition to the UK and it’s understood only second hand through the commercial films that popularised it and through the commercial opportunism being exploited by firms selling the costumes etc. (without any proper context of feeling or tradition). I wonder if it’s a native tradition in Canada where Piaidon comes from?

Whatever - its; still not the same thing as The Feast of All Souls and The Feast of All Saints - so there is no need for scandal if we wish each other a blessed All Hallows as universalists (we can forget the Halloween if it is to be a cause of scandal)

#22

Yes, indeedy.:slight_smile: (But maybe we can still make a case for eating sweets on our universalist holiday – any excuse to eat sweets is a good excuse to me!:lol: )

#23

Yes, Wicca came into being in the 20th century, but it is a witchcraft religion whether 20th century or not—and withcraft has been around since the times of the ancient Hebrews.

You say I was wished a “Happy All Hallows”. The “hallows” were the “holy ones” or “saints”. But all saints day is November 1, and all souls day is November 2. Do you celebrate either of these days? My guess is they are celebrated by virtually no one except devout Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglicans. The general public celebrates only Hallowe’en “Hallow Evening” (holy evening). It should be called “Unholy Evening”. It is considered the “holiest” of all “holy days” (holidays) by the members of the Wiccan religion. It marks the beginning of the Wiccan new year. Here is their explanation:

The Wiccans call it an evil, wicked night. Yet many of our good Christians are bold enough and deceived enough to call it a holy night, a Christian holiday.

#24

I applaud the American system for their stance.

It’s celebrated “with gusto” in Canadian schools. I am now ashamed to say that in my early days as a teacher, I participated fully—encouraged the children to dress in horrible costumes, and had them contruct ghosts, witches, etc. in art class. Later on, I learned the truth about the evil night, and changed my pædagogic ways.

#25

“All Hallows Eve” dates back to around the 16th century as a Christian celebration, and “Halloween” or “Hallowe’en” is derived from the Scottish “All Hallows Even.” The celebration of All Saints Day on November 1st dates back to 835 A.D. So I’d say that the Wiccans are bold enough and deceived enough to call our holy day a wicked night.

I’m in college to become an art teacher.:slight_smile: Just a random note, but I always like when I stumble across another teacher online. :slight_smile:

#26

I’m Anglican - many belated Happy All Hallows to you all :smiley:

#27

Dick, do you have the source of the 1590 prayer you cited above? A friend is interested.
Thanks!

#28

Hi Kate,

I don’t think it matters much what people CALL Hallowe’en night. We’re not talking about November 1st here (or Novemeber 2nd). We’re talking about the evening of October 31.

I think the activities which take place on that night speak for themselves. Which message do you think is spoken loudest? Holiness? Or wickedness?

#29

Hi Dave -

The Prayer comes from William Caxton’s Fifteen ‘Os’. Caxton was the first printer in England. The collection of prayers all begin with O Jesus’ - hence the name - and come from late medieval books of hours - prayers for private devotion accruing to the monastic day used by lay people. The universalism in this prayer probably stems from the flowering of universalism in fourteenth century England of which Mother Julian was an exemplar.

Hi Don -

You ask that of Kate - but what do you think f the poem Robin Parry posted - Caleb has given a link above? It clarified stuff for me - but as I say Halloween isn’t; big in the UK (and was drastically small this year because of the recession apparently - lots of costumes unsold in shops). I don’t see kids dressing up and being given candy as wicked - or else we’d have to ban drama too. I do see kids harassing older people as wicked though. Also I don’t believe that there was a religion of witchcraft in the middle ages or in pre-modern Europe - there is no evidence for this apart from the rantings of persecution texts like the Malleus Malleficarum. And whatever stuff did go on regarding residual pantheism the horror of the Christian with hunts far outweighed it. Likewise the disturbing miscarriages of justice during the Satanic panic recently far outweighed the danger posed by Wiccans. I feel quite strongly about this - having studied the stuff in some detail with al of the mechanisms of False Accusation on display. The Quaker part of my Quanglican medley loves the story of William Penn who had a confused old woman dragged before him accused of flying on a broomstick. She confessed to the crime. He dismissed the case with 'I see nothing in our constitution that forbids you from flying on a broomstick. And go gentle with my goddaughter :slight_smile:

#30

Thank you kindly, Dick.

#31

I’ve talked about James I in connection with Guy Fawkes tonight. He wrote a book name ‘demonolgy’ which he supposed to be an exact science for detecting witches – luckily when he became King of England everyone laughed at his pretensions. But when he was merely King of Scotland under John Knox’s regime he did serious mischief with his exact science for rooting out wickedness. I cannot be doing with this Manichean view – it strikes me as mischief itself. Shakespeare wrote his Scottish play for James I – Macbeth. English teachers all have their stories of conservative Christian parents withdrawing their children from English literature classes when this is on the syllabus. It never happened to me - even though I’ve had conservative Christian kids in my classes a plenty - but I know it does happen a lot.

But Shakespeare – in my view – was wise. Yes there are witches in the play that seem to tempt to evil – but are they real or are they just figments? This is never clear and is left deliberately ambiguous. And in the end the real drama is of a good man overthrown his weak spot for power when power is offered him. And despite the supernatural shenanigans what is really going on is the drama of a kind and heroic man terrifyingly – the original one to be ‘full of the milk of human kindness - suppressing the image of God in himself to get power. And once he has got power through murder and mayhem and his wife who has egged him on at first is driven mad with grief at the cycle of unending violence that’s unleashed, power is revealed as nothing if prized for its own sake.

I think the real drama of good and evil is within the heart of each one of us. I think some imaginative participation in dramas about good and evil – in fairy stories, in nursery rhymes, in the ghost stories and myths that both C.S. Lewis and George MacDonald loved - are a necessary part of our moral education. To imagine something and to dress up as something is not the same as to be something. Halloween need not be a door into darkness and is only so when lots of other things are going wrong in a child’s life and their imagination has been severely impoverished in other ways.

#32

Yeah, I’m with you Dick on this one. I think Halloween is like a lot of other holidays. There can be good things about it and bad things about it.

Even Christmas, that holiday that is beloved by many Christians, has been troubled by rampant commercialization, it is a time when family tensions may rise, and suicide rates climb drastically during ‘the most wonderful time of the year’, just for starters.
But it is also a time when people may be inspired to simple acts of kindness, to reconciliation, or may be touched by beauty or wonder or hope in different ways.

The same goes I think for Halloween.

It’s not all drunken rave parties, costumed orgies, teens egging/TPing houses, or Satanists sacrificing kitties and puppies in black Masses.
There are communities coming together to bless their children through simple acts of kindness (the warm and neighborly acknowledgement of them being more meaningful than any candy that may be offered) it can be a good outlet for creativity and imagination, and more than anything it’s a way for the young and the young at heart to just loosen up a little and have fun.

Of course Halloween, like any other holiday, can go sour, for one reason or another. But I don’t think evil is inherent in it any more than in any other holiday that a lot of people celebrate.

I remember my celebration of Halloween as a child fondly. Dressing up as a ninja or what have you and trick or treating was always a lot of fun, and being acknowledged by my neighbors, being spoken to kindly and treated warmly by neighbors who otherwise I would have never interacted with, always made me feel good, even if, at the time, I was thinking more about the candy. :wink:

Nowadays, because I’m too old for trick or treating (though I may take my kids trick or treating whenever I have kids of my own in the future), and I’ve gotta work on Halloween most years, I just celebrate by watching Halloweenish movies like Poltergeist or Ghostbusters, or by reading some good ghost stories, etc.

I think people freaking out about Halloween is like people freaking out about Harry Potter (as a relevant example).
Personally I think they’re being paranoid and uptight, and really need to lighten up.
But I remember when I was more conservative I was wary of stuff like Harry Potter, so I can understand where they’re coming from, because I’ve been there myself.
But that’s because I made assumptions about it and never looked into it myself, or bothered to see whatever good there might be in it.

When I did get around to watching the Harry Potter movies and reading the Harry Potter books for myself, after my fiancee encouraged me to see for myself instead of just judging blindly, I found a lot of good in them, stuff about friendship, courage, hope, love and self-sacrifice, even some strong Christian symbolism (J.K. Rowling is a believer after all, even if she admits she is a struggling one, and I can certainly relate to that).
The same goes for Halloween.
Some people can just assume it is evil, and not look any deeper and try to see the bigger picture, but then I think they are took quick to throw out the baby with the bathwater, at least imo.

This reminds me of that passage in the book of Acts where God gives Peter the vision on the roof, telling Peter not to call anything impure that God has made clean.

What I mean by mentioning this is that even though there are certain elements in every major holiday, from Halloween to Christmas, that are ‘impure’, there are other elements that are ‘clean’, I believe, because God is at work within those elements, at least imo.

So though I think it is fair to seriously question or reject certain elements of Halloween or other holidays, I don’t think it’s fair to seriously question or reject other elements.

There needs to be a balance I think. We don’t need to embrace everything, but neither do we need to reject everything.

There are certain things that aren’t good for us and that we should stay away from on the one hand, for sure, but on the other hand, God may be at work in some heretofore unexpected places, including in the midst of our holidays, and even those that have ‘pagan’ roots.

In short, we should maintain a little caution, but we should also try to keep an open mind.

Well, that’s my two cents anyway :slight_smile:

Blessings to you and peace :slight_smile:

Matt

#33

I think that Dick and Matt both clarify my views of Halloween perfectly. While some capitalize on Halloween to celebrate wickedness, the “typical” American family uses it as a time to have fun with their children and neighbors. And a lot of good comes from that. My neighbors are generally rather indifferent to one another, but at Halloween, all the kids and their parents (and even pets!) have a costume parade and the older neighbors watch. The humble little display ends with hotdogs and Kool-aid a few blocks away. (I still enjoy dressing up to pass out candy to the neighborhood children, but I opted to stay inside, cozied up on my couch, this year.)

The typical costume is the latest Disney character or superhero. Yes, there are some green witches and teeny goblins running around, but in the States, such images are considered such a work of fiction, that parents do not feel uncomfortable with such characters. In general, Halloween-y creatures have evolved into such separate entities from “real” witches and such that letting kids wear “scary” costumes doesn’t pose a problem in the minds of most parents.

However, I completely understand while some chose not to participate in Halloween. In my opinion, that decision is based on interpretation and personal experience with the holiday.

#34

I listened to the poem.

There is no doubt that Christ has overcome the forces of evil. But does that give us a licence to align ourselves with the forces of evil by entering into Hallowe’en practices?

Suppose the king of a country had won a victory over a group of rebels, but there are a few rebels who keep fighting on by means of ambush. Will those in support of the king help out with rebel activity, thinking it harmless to do so because the king has already been victorious?

#35

Don, I don’t believe real spirits of evil haunt the air at Halloween. The festival was a Northern European one and occurs at a time when its getting very dark in the year. Darkness - that is physical darkness - was once a time of shifting shapes in shadows and things half seen and misunderstood etc. The Fools Feast of All Hallows was a way of coping with this and letting go of anxiety in the age before street lights and light-bulbs. It was about laughing at that which frightens you to strengthen you and become brave. It was about laughing at death - leading the powers in mock triumph - rather than celebrating it and embracing it. If you like it was about how to live easy in the shadows while orientating deeper hopes towards the light. And the physical drama was a symbol of the spiritual one.

Christians have every right to witness against what Halloween has become for some today; and remind people of the Christian meaning of the excuse for a party. But old friend I just feel so cautious about getting sucked into a too strong emphasis on the demonic powers -which only gives the powers more power. And that is my sincere belief - even though I only celebrated Halloween in a very limited sense when young. But I’m celebrating Guy Fawkes tonight - just by looking out of the window and watching the glowing and spangled London sky I am complicit - yet I’m not revelling in sectarian hatred against Catholics for one moment (for I have none).

I don’t think real evil ever looks like a season of licensed carnival. Clowns, Harlequinades, Punch and Judy, Mummer shows, Grotesques in medieval cathedrals, and Twelfth Night revels, like the ghoul shows of Halloween and the mock burning on fifth of November are not acts of worship – they are there for catharsis and laughter against all that makes us afraid and uncomfortable (young children have terrible nightmares – this stuff helps them to get their fears in perspective). And anyway they are meant to be funny; real evil when it shows is not knockabout stuff – it’s invariably very shoddy, and pretentious while seeming to offer attractive and simple solutions – and it takes itself with awful seriousness.

In a godly state carnival would be banned along with all rebellion – all of it – and yet great evil would still be done by the virtuous (like the thirty young women that the man who stressed the notion of rebellion against a sovereign lord in his theology above all else had burned for witchcraft when there was a cattle plague). But rebellion is quelled in the kingdom I have faith in through servant love – the rebel forces are not destroyed or forced into abject submission, they are transformed through loves patient and painful work. Old Jack Lewis at the end of the Lion the Witch and the Wardborbe has Father Christmas turn up along with Bacchus and Sileneus (both originally pagan and the latter pair originally very dark indeed) – but these archetypes are transformed in the Kingdom of Love. As Matt says above with great insight this is at heart related to Peter’s vision about clean and unclean meat and the potential for scandal in the debate (and also about Pauls’ views on food that is sacrificed to idols and Jesus words on what makes a person pure or impure).

Don I can only tell you what I think in my heart - I have no wish to offend, and I never celebrated Halloween as a kid beyond making a Jack O’ Lanterns, playing bob apple, and a game of murder in the dark. But the thought of Matt coming round to my place and knocking on the door in his Ninja Turtle suit - now that’s scary! :laughing:

love

Dick

#36

In what activities DO real spirits of evil engage? It seems that some of them inhabited people, and Jesus saw fit to cast them out. How many today (at least in the U.S.A. and Canada) would be so bold? I think we would ascribe the sufferings of demon-possessed people to mental illness rather than demonic activity.

It seems to me that if we leave ourselves open to demons, they will gladly participate.

Many other demonic activities are thought to be entirely benign—for example, “water witching”.This practice actually works. I have heard that some companies have hired water witches to find water in desert conditions. Some try to explain it “scientifically”. They say that the willow (or wires or whatever) has a natural attraction the water. If that were the case, one could wheel the willow on a cart and it would bend. But it must be held in the hands to work. Furthermore, people who are unable to witch can receive the ability to do so when one who has the power places his hands on top of those of the would-be learner. From then on, the latter, through the laying on of hands, has the power.

It may be coincidence, but I have noted that a number of people whom I know who have had their wells witched, have had major problems in their family life.

Even non-Christians seem to understand witching as having its origin in evil spirits. Two other families together with our family sponsored a Vietnamese family on our rural property (during the refugee crisis). We were going to have a well dug for the family. The men of our three families prayed to God to show us where to drill. Each of us went and stood where we felt God would have us stand. Then we decided to have the well drilled in the centre of the triangle so formed. We placed a stake at the location. When the men from the drilling company arrived with their machine, the foreman asked, “Do we have to drill exactly where the stake is? Was this location witched?” I answered, “No. We consulted the other side.” He replied, “So… you didn’t consult the devil on this one, eh?” Perhaps the foreman was just joking, but he seemed to recognize something.

By the way, water was struck at 25 feet. It provided well for the needs of several families of refugees who lived there consecutively as well as other families who later rented the place.

#37

We don’t use the term ‘water witching’ in the UK and it would be considered in bad taste. It is too much like the terrible trial by water of so called witches of the past– if you sink and drown you are innocent if you float and live you are guilty and are to be burnt to death.

Dowsing is based in an outmoded belief - that was actually the mainstream view in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance – namely that nature is animated by vital spirits. If dowsing was proved to work then a scientist today would have to look for a different explanation – perhaps human beings are sensitive to small magnetic field gradient changes? However, it has not been proved to work beyond the margin of chance. Everything you are saying in your post is anecdotal. When Calvin had women burnt to death for causing a cattle plague this sort of anecdotal stuff abounded – and greatly confused most people’s ability to discern cause and effect. I am very happy that God can lead people to literal water - and I think God can - but that does not clarify the bigger issue here.

I don’t think that those who were demon possessed who were set free by Jesus had become thus oppressed by participating in carnival or in ancient new age type practices. I think the source of these oppressions and possession were far less trivial – and I think that the Early Church Fathers had a far richer understanding of what constitutes demonic possession than American (and Canadian?) fundamentalist literature has today . I only feel strongly about this because I know that this sort of literature has had some influence on what has happened to children in Niger. See –
makeapact.org/

#38

Perhaps the Quaker bit in me should declare an interest here. I know when persecution was fierce in England – albeit for a short time – Quaker girls were commonly portrayed as witches and some were subjected to the ducking stool and public beatings.

I know and remember only too well that when American fundamentalists were giving lectures to social workers in the UK (as experts) concerning ‘Satanic abuse’ in the 1990’s, a full scale panic began over here. In Rochdale and Cleveland and the Orkneys there were some scandalous abuses of justice with social workers effectively leading children according to the script of the fundamentalists when interviewing them. Families were broken up by Social workers on the slightest suspicion as the collusions and bad professional practice spread

In the end all the evidence was available including the taped interviews – and a Parliamentary Enquiry concluded after careful sifting of evidence that there was no organised cult of Satanic abuse in the UK. THE Evangelical Alliance repented for having initially supported claims.
In the Orkney’s scandal –once the false accusation had been generated the whole community became suspect (as once happened in Saalem Massachusetts). A Quaker family was interviewed as. THE ignorant secular social workers on hearing that they sat around in a circle each Sunday in silence removed their child because they were suspected of participation in a witch’s coven.

And I’m sorry I’ve used the ‘f’ for fundamentalist word here. I don’t have another word to use that can convey what I’m trying to say simply – but its’ not a good word. Its’ not a lot of fun and pretty mental as the joke goes – so I’ll try and be specific.
Fundamentalism as I’ve used it in these posts is to do with believing in a very literal reading of the supernatural and the demonic (and often goes hand in hand with a literalistic reading of the Bible - but not always). For me the dangers here are about the tendency to promote obscurantism in this way and the danger that such beliefs can lead a person to project their own sinfulness, their own limitations etc. on to outside forces and other ‘outside’ people far too easily. There are several people on this site who have admitted to struggling with mental health problems. I’m not of a mind that they should be exorcized - and I don’t think the church Fathers would have seen this as the correct diagnosis either.

You often don’t argue like a fundamentalist at all – not in the slightest. Then sometimes you do – you argue completely like one (and you’ll use the ‘l’ for liberal word as a negative compliment too). Och well – speaking for the both us – it takes all sorts to make a world. But I do get a bit grumpy about this one Piaidon. I think I’ll bow out of this none and hope to catch up you for happier chats (and we have plenty of these :slight_smile: )

Blessings

Dick