The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Hell in the OT

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

I just read Isaiah 66, 15-24 and I absolutely do not like what it says…

Final Judgment and Glory of the Lord

15“For behold, the Lord will come in fire,
and his chariots like the whirlwind,
to render his anger in fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16For by fire will the Lord enter into judgment,
and by his sword, with all flesh;
and those slain by the Lord shall be many.
17“Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig’s flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the Lord.
18“For I knowb their works and their thoughts, and the time is comingc to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory, 19 and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations. 20And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the Lord, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the Lord. 21And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the Lord.
22“For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
23 From new moon to new moon,and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me,declares the Lord.
24“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Also Isaiah 65,22
22They shall not build and another inhabit;
they shall not plant and another eat;
for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be,
and my chosen shall long enjoyc the work of their hands.

As well as Isaiah 65, 13-16
13Therefore thus says the Lord God:
“Behold, my servants shall eat,
but you shall be hungry;
behold, my servants shall drink,
but you shall be thirsty;
behold, my servants shall rejoice,
but you shall be put to shame;
14behold, my servants shall sing for gladness of heart,
but you shall cry out for pain of heart -
and shall wail for breaking of spirit. (-> Gnashing of teeth and weeping?)
15You shall leave your name to my chosen for a curse,
and the Lord God will put you to death,
but his servants he will call by another name.
16So that he who blesses himself in the land
shall bless himself by the God of truth,
and he who takes an oath in the land
shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten
and are hidden from my eyes.

To me this absolutely reminds me of what Jesus said and revelation. Note that it says ‘all flesh shall come to worship’, yet they shall go out to look at those that rebelled. Their worm shall not die and the fire shall not be quenced and they are an abhorrence to all flesh.

I do not know what think when I read that…I absolutely see ether anhiliation(the merciful way) or torment. I still do not know what the worm is-does anyone have an idea?

If those bow their knees as well in conciousness, they must be alive in that fire, which kind of hints at torement again. At very least here it does not state (or did I oversee it?) that this state is eternal…though it makes me worried to think wether aion might be translated as ‘forever’ since I do not see any clear intention that God would end it :frowning:

In any way, what I see his God’s anger and his condemnation…I don’t think one can say that it would not happen, yet the questions remains if it is eternal and if/how much pain is inflicted.
Thus this was written for Israel wasn’t it- but isn’t it said that all Israel will be restored? I interpreted that it means all people and the country will be restored- does it only mean the country??? :open_mouth:
Also it suprised me that God condems eating pig that much, even though nowadays it is allowed. It seems as if the judgment was written for Israel that was below the law, yet the desciption of ‘hell’ after Jesus is smiliar.

Thoughts? :frowning:

#2

We talk about 66:24 and its contexts a lot, so I hadn’t bothered to post my compilation notes on it yet; sorry. :frowning:

Now rectified. :slight_smile:

Isaiah 65 talks about much the same situation of course, but it also features that famous verse (with the frequently overlooked detail :wink: ) about the bronze serpent (from Gen 3) finally eating the dust in humility and reconciliation on the holy mountain of God along with other former ravening enemies represented by various animals.

It wouldn’t make much sense for “the bronze serpent” to be finally saved after all, and yet for merely human sinners to be finally lost. Which I expect is a big reason why that term is not usually translated to show continuity with Genesis 3. :laughing:

#3

I don’t think those passages have anything to do with the afterlife. Rather, they are all telling what was future to Isaiah but what is past to us. They are foretelling the return of the people of Israel to the promised land in the late 6th century B. C. The faithful would be rewarded with this-worldly blessings, and the unfaithful would be punished with this-worldly curses.

#4

Explain why the ‘snake in the Garden’ which is said to be ‘the ancient serpent, the deciever of the world’ and the ‘bronze serpent’ which delivered Israelites from death and a prototype to Christ are one and the same. Winking don’t make it so.

Explain how Isaiah 65 uses ingesting dust as a means to communicate heaven, whereas everywhere else it means death. Maybe the lion literally eats straw, I dunno, but the overall picture is that lions are not dangerous anymore. Serpents ‘eating’ dust is still curse language.

#5

Since the contrast is with formerly dangerous animals (who by the way also serve as satanic figures, like a lion seeking whomever he may devour) now living together in peace with peaceful animals, the reference is no doubt to the creature with the same exact Hebrew term from Genesis 3 and not to something inherently benevolent. (Although that does bring up the total weirdness of the bronze serpent hanging on the pole being a figure for Christ – it’s the same term, too. The pole has an interesting sequel in the days of the kings of Israel later, for one of the kings found the people worshiping the artifact and had it destroyed!) Since God tells Job that He can tame Leviathan as a gift for a little daughter – Leviathan being another figure for Satan, not merely a crocodile (and not even a croc being the figure, but some kind of fire breathing sea dragon) – the child playing with the serpent, and a little child leading it along with other previously dangerous ravagers, in another of Isaiah’s peace-on-the-holy-mountain visions earlier, is apt.

Eating dust is a sign of humility, and by the way also a direct verbal callback to Genesis 3 (not to the bronze serpent on the pole) in case some future translator ever decided to obscure the terms from being recognized as identical. It also happens to be a popular understanding for centuries and centuries about what a snake is doing when it flicks its tongue – an action it only usually does when being at, or seeking, peace rather than conflict. (Though admittedly it can do that while hunting, too. But that would run against the gist of the prophecy.)

There’s a subtle cultural critique of the serpent involved, too, in the idea that it could survive just fine by eating dust (not really, but people for a very long time thought it could and often did) – something no other animal even has an option about! – and yet the serpent insists on attacking and eating prey as well. It is curse language in a way, but only in the sense that something proud has been humbled into peace; and, per some other imagery, also humbled into submitting to higher proper authority.

The prophecy of the bronze serpent eating dust from Genesis 3 will be fulfilled, whatever the imagery figuratively (or literally) means, by the bronze serpent eating dust on God’s holy mountain where the bronze serpent from Genesis 3 will live in peace and not be dangerous anymore: the wolf, the lion, and even the bronze serpent from Genesis 3 “will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain”. Per earlier holy mountain imagery, the bronze serpent (by topical parallel although the language isn’t exactly the same) will even play safely with children and be led about by a little child, whatever that may figuratively or literally mean.

That God will slay Leviathan first is no bar to this. Just like earlier in Isaiah 65, God slaying those who bless themselves and swear oaths upon the earth, is no bar to them eventually coming to bless themselves and swear upon the God of truth at last, with the former troubles forgotten and hid from God’s sight.