The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Hi there

Evangelical Universalism
#1

I stumbled onto the Tentmaker site a few months ago.
Before that, my only contact with UR/EU was a slight(“uh, really?”) niggling
in the back of my head whenever someone would mention
Philipians 2:9-11 and apply the usual strained interpretation that you
all seem to be familiar with. I am not quite settled yet on the truth of the matter yet,
but I feel like I have been lied to all my life :frowning: :
Lied to about about ECT being an overwhelmingly clear teaching of the NT,
Lied to about all Christians from the early church onward believing in ECT.
Lied to about a non-ECT afterlife being a province only of cults(SDA, JWs) and
googoo-eyed new agers.
Lied to about “we are living in the end times” dispensationalism being the best way
to take the book of Revelation(this was the first lie I caught onto).

“The traditions of men” are not something that is only a problem among those “dirty Roman
Catholics” :bulb: . 10 percent tithing, altar calls, “say this prayer to get saved”, neurotic
fixation on sexual sin(which actually tends to, uh, “prime the pump” a little :smiling_imp: ) above all others,
total identification with conservative politics(not sure how true this is for you guys outside the US),
the aforementioned dispensationalism, etc, etc.

All the UR implying verses(except Phil 2) are completely passed over in mainstream
churches. Now traditionalist apologists are being forced to say(“Oh…that…yes…that…
well…that really doesn’t mean what it seems to be for the following very stetchy
sounding reasons…”). ECT explanations of UR/EU-pointing verses are,
in addition to usually being full of holes, just have a “oh dear, this is awkward” :unamused: vibe to them.

I understand about the words aion, gehenna, etc. No need for you guys to reiterate those.
All that being said, my one hang-up is Isaiah 66:24. The new heavens and new Earth have been established
and “all flesh” are said to gaze at “the carcasses” of those who have rebelled"
I think this may pose a problem for BOTH UR AND ECT. If there is any smoking gun for annihilationism,
that passage is it.

God Bless, I look forward to interacting further here.

#2

Hi Cheshire! Welcome!

I suggest starting a topic to discuss Isaiah 66, since you see that as a difficulty for UR. Probably the “Discussion Negative” section would be a good place for it.

Sonia

#3

Welcome to the forum Cheshiredog! It’s hard not to feel betrayed by the church :frowning: However, I’m extremely grateful to God for mercifully not leaving us completely in the dark but revealing things, and I’m sure there are many things I’m still mistaken about & need help understanding.

I don’t live in the US, but I agree that the way Christianity & politics often gets confusedly intertwined is very frustrating, particularly when people publicly hate in the name of Christ :cry: Having said that, being a politician would be a very difficult job, particularly being also a genuine Christian.

I personally find Is 66:24 a difficult verse. Here’s one thread where I debated it with a non-UR: Joe: Salvation for ‘All flesh’ and Isaiah 66:22-23

A summary would be worms require dead flesh to eat, so as you noticed, it can’t be talking about ECT (where people are alive), so in my mind there seems to be two possible ways to understand it:

]It’s talking about the ultimate destruction of the evil self (Pauline “old man”, “flesh”, etc.) within us./]

]That it’s apocalyptic language, to show that rebellion against God will be crushed (before resurrection & reconciliation). Similar to Sodom being “eternally” burned (which it isn’t, i.e. you’ll see no fires in it’s physical location) and that God (through Ezekiel) later promises to restore./]

#4

Welcome to the group, Cheshire! I’ll look forward to seeing your new topic, too. It sounds like being a good discussion. :slight_smile:

Blessings, Cindy

#5

Welcome Chreshire,

I look forward to your participation here. If not for all the passages that seem to affirm UR, I would believe in annihilation. And I would enjoy a discussion of Is. 66. You’re welcome to start one if you like.

Welcome,
Sherman

#6

Hi Cheshire:

Of course we SDA’s don’t really think of ourselves as a “cult” – but then again probably neither do the JW’s! :laughing: :laughing: (I think I may be the only active SDA on this forum… though there are several former SDA’s…)

As for “lying” by the Christian churches, and/or Christian members, that’s probably too harsh a term I’m thinking… Because that implies an intent to deceive; a willful assertion of an idea that is known not to be true. Except these Christians really DO believe these things!!! But I know what you’re saying…

My take on this has similarities with Alex’s…

First off, the act of gazing at the carcasses seems a bit like gloating doesn’t it? and quite unbecoming for these redeemed whose attitudes supposedly reflects God’s. Except God’s attitude is one of sadness and loss. Further, it doesn’t really seem compatible with a God of Love – who wants the best for those He loves; which surely includes those carcasses… So I think it’s highly metaphoric language…

But consider this: those doing the gazing have, themselves new and glorified bodies given them to replace their old ones. What happens then to the olds ones? Maybe THOSE are the carcasses??!! Have not we all rebelled? Isn’t the point of much of what Paul writes that we are ALL in the condition of needing salvation?

Further, my understanding of how sin will be “no more” is that God has won us back to an intelligent and informed worship. And for that to be most real, it seems our memories need to be intact; the entire context of our being saved, of God’s work in us through Christ, must be there in our minds for constant review. The act of looking at those dead bodies (think how often Paul talks of death of the old man as being necessary) may be picturesque language to refer to looking back at our old selves.

Those are a few initial thoughts…

And welcome to the forum!
Bobx3

PS – and you are doing pretty well if this text is your ONLY problem with UR!