lovely and true post, RuthJ!
It seems to me that it all comes down to which of the following is correct: Sin is a crime that needs to be punished vs Sin is a disease that needs a cure.
Perhaps our subjection to bondage, corruption, and futility (Rom 8) and the resultant glorious revelation of the sons of God, will be for all of creation a sudden awakening from a bad dream.
The horrors of the dream being incomparable with the sudden experience of reality. The memories of the dream lingering for only an instance and serving only to magnify the glories of what has always been true.
For many years after college I had this persistent nightmare that I’d failed my last class and therefore never graduated. I would wake up somewhat confused and very sad only to realize that it was not true. The realization that it was just a dream would cause me to light up inside with delight. These bad dreams were the vehicle for delight.
I somehow sense that God is doing something unspeakably amazing around us and our “purgatorial” views are wholly inadequate.
Nimblewill,
You seem to pose the right question raised by the competing interpretations of the Bible’s storyline! I sense that for many of our traditions, Luther (and penal substitution) has reinforced seeing sin as especially needing the right punishment (penalty) so that it can be just to now graciously pass over its’ destructiveness for us. For Luther the real point of the Bible’s story is to show that the obedience God was calling for in his people was hopelessly impossible 
But I perceive that the whole OT (whose context provides what the NT addresses) narrates God’s faithful perseverance in a process of pursuing a people who choose and develop an actually purfied character. ‘Salvation’ largely means experiencing the wholeness of shalom as God’s process works within us the healing that the whole story cries out for. Thus, I’m skeptical of interpretations of the NT that seem to cancel the importance of a continued process toward this priority, in favor of an instant solution. They seem to make the trajectory that the Biblical narrative emphasizes meaningless.
I guess I’m not sure exactly what Jesus accomplished on the cross. Did He create a path to salvation or salvation itself?
Perhaps one could say that the cross created ‘salvation,’ if this meant something like it ‘offers’ it or establishes it “in principle.” But my preference would be to say that the cross did not “create salvation” in that no one is automatically saved by the cross apart from the appropriate response to the offer of God’s grace, and that it is Jesus’ life, death, resurrection, exaltation, and his facilitation of the Holy Spirit’s work that makes salvation possible. If the past event of the cross alone created our salvation, then wouldn’t everyone would already be saved? My sense is that God will secure everyone’s salvation, but that this is securely worked out over time, and the Bible’s assumption is that we play a part in it as we choose to respond to God’s grace. In other words, I think the NT is consistent with the OT in looking for an obedient and righteous response of faith to the always unmerited love and grace of God. Thus I do think saying that Jesus and the cross provide the “path to salvation” is appropriate, since the Bible suggests that experiencing salvation’s wholeness involves following his example and taking up our own cross.
This discussion started out by talking about holiness. It’s therefore important to understand what “holiness” is. It *isn’t *moral purity or intense piety. It is different. Let’s also remember that YHWH’s holiness is the important thing, not ours.
Holiness – “differentness” – is a comparison with something: it doesn’t exist in a vacuum. When the Old Testament writers say that YHWH is “Holy”, they are saying that he is completely different from the other gods, not just by outdoing them in their characteristics, but by not conforming to those characteristics or expectations at all. Let’s have a look.
“They have eyes, but they cannot see;
They have ears, but they cannot hear;
They have noses, but they cannot smell;
They have hands, but they cannot feel”
The gods of the heathen can’t take in information, and are unaffected and unchanged by what happens outside themselves. YHWH, on the other hand, sees our plight, hears our cries, senses needs, and not only responds but adapts, changes his way of doing things, in order to fulfill his faithfulness towards his creation.
Molech the monster-god demanded that human beings be burnt alive to appease him - small children, who could have no choice in the matter.
YHWH said that no such abomination had ever entered his mind. Jesus blessed the children, healed them, and said that harming one of them was one of the worst things anyone could do.
Most gods like to have a fancy temple with lots of gold and other rich stuff. These places must be treated with respect.
YHWH was happy in a tent that could be moved around: it wasn’t his idea to have a temple. His final temple was Jesus, who walked among ordinary people, routinely touched those who were considered “unclean”, and arranged for himself to be broken and ruined by those who had no respect or idea of who he really was – and for their benefit.
All gods want offerings, some take lives of animals or people, some want a portion of the living to perpetually serve them, some demand appeasement to avert their anger or displeasure.
But Jesus, who is the true image of YHWH, insisted on serving, even like a slave; he gave his own body to give life to the whole world; in him it is YHWH who is offering an estranged world an olive branch - reconciling the world to himself.
The gods may do favours, but they only do them for the faithful – and maybe for the occasional individual who catches their fancy.
YHWH is and has always been fully determined to heal and give real, full life to his entire creation, with no conditions attached.
Thanks for the encouragement Melchizedek, There are many things that give me pause too. You can’t live in this world, while having even the slightest awareness of the gross injustice and madness of the world, and not have doubts and give way to the despair that it is all meaningless. All religious talk of an almighty god with a plan and our pious response of belief and righteousness does not measure up to what the real world needs.
Countless millions of us–and all the other speechless creatures of God’s good creation-- cannot articulate their cries of pain and despair except as a groan. Only a real God–a Crucified God-- can measure up to the death, despair and suffering of this world. And more than measure up to it by immersing Himself into the very depths of despair and death to fill it with His transforming, life giving presence.
“Resurrection to life vs. resurrection to judgment.” At first glance it seems to be an irreconcilable dichotomy. If we are informed by the conventional, western Roman law (the law that crucified Jesus) definition of judgment then we would despair of such a judgment. It would be a matter of retributive justice getting what we deserve and it would be something to dread. But this is not what is in the mind of John or Paul when they used that word. They were thinking of the sadaq (justice) of YHWH. Justice for the Hebrews is not retributive and the judgment of God is not to be feared but rather to be celebrated.
Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice; let the sea roar, and all the things which it; Let the field be exultant, and all that is in it! Then shall all the trees of the wood sing for joy
Before YHWH, for He comes, for He comes to **judge** and govern the earth! He shall **judge** the world with equitableness and justice and the peoples with His faithfulness (Jesus the faithfulness of God made real) and truth. Psalm 96
To judge in the OT is to liberate, to save. It is not to pass sentence and condemn. “I have come to save the world not condemn it,” Jesus said–and did. The judgment, in the Hebraic worldview, undoes sin (the distortion, corruption of the relationships that define our life) and removes the tumors of sin and makes us whole.
How does he judge the Earth? As an autocratic potentate issuing divine fiats from a throne? No, He judges it from the throne of YHWH and the Lamb. He pours out, without limit and indiscriminately, His healing, transforming life to all of creation–the river of life. No one is born (resurrected) into the new creation without receiving the full all-bountifulness (El Shaddai) of the prodigal Abba, Father, who gives all that He is to all that there is in His beloved creation.
The crucified Jesus, the lambkin of God, takes up all the crosses of the world. He is the savior/healer of the world, not merely the role model of the savior of the world, rather the actual savior who declared it is “finished” from a Roman cross.
Ruth,
Your last piece appears to conclude that God heals and gives full life to all “with no conditions attached.” My impression is that the O.T. and N.T. consistently agree that God stedfastly loves us all unconditionally, but that experiencing God’s healing wholeness, salvation, and acceptance IS conditioned on our response that consists of the obedience of faith. Is the difference in our readings as big as it appears? Which texts do you rely on for your sense that it’s clear that God’s restoration of us has “no conditions”?
What is the difference between love and acceptance. You are saying that one, love, is unconditional and the other, acceptance is conditional.
This is were, at least one form, of UR breaks down for me.
Nimblewill, Good question! I agree that the semantics of maintaining what seems to me to be the Biblical tension is an unavoidable challenge! I am defining “love” as forever seeking another’s welfare and spiritual wholeness unconditionally (regardless of what they do). At the same time it seems to me that the Bible presents God as one who participates in painful consequences and restorative discipline when we are not where we need to be. In this sense, I would say God’s love does not provide unconditional ‘acceptance’ irrelevant of our response. This seems to me consistent with the Biblical picture of seeing God’s love as analogous to a caring parent. Why do you think such a combination creates a breakdown in the universalist hope? I’m curious which texts convince you guys that God must never have ‘conditions.’
YHWH didn’t and doesn’t need our permission to create the universe, to heal individuals or the whole creation, to bring life to the dead and to the inorganic, to heal, to make right, to make all things new.
YHWH treats all his creation evenhandedly: he cannot get the permission of the plants, animals, the extinct, the dead, the mentally deficient or emotionally defective. He has concluded all under sin, so that he can have mercy on all; he has subjected the whole creation to degeneration, so that he can make the whole creation whole and give it abundant life. This is the evenhandedness (dikaosune) of YHWH.
Just before dying, Jesus said, “It is finished”
It is his death, his suffering, his process, his journey, his achievement, his cross, that does it. I can’t emphasise enough that Jesus’s death on the cross was enough. We deny and negate that if we say that more is required – especially more on our part. That is tantamout to saying that we are the saviours, healers, and liberators, and Jesus is merely the facilitator.
Isaiah sees YHWH doing this on his own, using his own arm (Jesus):
YHWH looked and was displeased that there was no justice. He saw that there was no one, he was appalled that there was no one to intervene; so his own arm achieved salvation for him (Isaiah 59:15-16)
Jesus, the Lord of all, said, “If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to myself.” (John 12:32)
How can he draw all to himself without at the same time changing our minds?
In Jesus’s story of the lost sheep (Luke 15:4-6), he puts no conditions on the sheep: the sheep may be wandering happily around, or may be cowering and terrified, or may be asleep; the sheep may have got lost accidentally or decided to go off on its own; the sheep may or may not know that it is lost – none of this matters. It is the shepherd who takes responsibility, and when he finds it HE carries it home. And his follow-up: correction, teaching, punishment? No, just being excited and telling everyone he found the sheep.
Jesus is the actual saviour of the world, not the facilitator, not the one who merely sets up the conditions for the salvation of the world.
Abraham believed in God, who gives life to the dead and calls things into existence that do not exist. (Romans 4:17)
YHWH is not just saviour and healer, he is the creator. Resurrection is an act of creation: it’s not just a matter of taking someone as they were before they died and standing them up.
Jesus equates forgiveness of sin with healing:
Then they came to Him bringing a paralytic, carried by four men… told the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there, thinking to themselves: “Why does He speak like this? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Right away Jesus understood in His spirit that they were thinking like this within themselves and said to them, “Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, pick up your mat, and walk’? But so you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,” He told the paralytic, “I tell you: get up, pick up your mat, and go home.” Immediately he got up, picked up the mat. (Mark 2:3-12)
No matter what Jesus did for people (and Jesus is the image of God – he does everything he sees his father do - John 5:19) it was instant, complete, immediate, and caused no suffering at all for the people he did it for. What possible reason is there to believe that he has secretly changed the way he deals with people?
Jesus went to a town called Nain, and his disciples and a large crowd went along with him. As he approached the town gate, a dead person was being carried out—the only son of his mother, and she was a widow… When the Lord saw her, his heart went out to her and he said, “Don’t cry.” Then he went up and touched the bier they were carrying him on, and the bearers stood still. He said, “Young man, I say to you, get up!” The dead man sat up and began to talk. (Luke 7:11-15)
There is no indication that the dead man believed in Jesus, or had ever met him, nor that he had been particularly good, so clearly he did not cooperate in Jesus’s raising of him. The cause of death is immaterial: whether sickness, an accident, self-inflicted, through stupidity, ill will, or not isn’t asked or mentioned because it doesn’t matter: Jesus will raise him anyway. Whatever the cause of death was, Jesus removes that as part of giving him life: it comes with the package; it is not a separate process.
Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. (Matthew 12:22)
In the synagogue there was a man possessed by the spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice, “Let us alone! What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are— the Holy One of God!” But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be quiet and come out of him!” And when the demon had thrown him down in the midst of the people, he came out of him without doing him any harm. (Luke 4:33-35)
Two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?” Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.” He said to them, “Go!” (Matthew 8:28-32)
In these accounts, Jesus freed people from demon possession. It doesn’t matter what you think demons are, Jesus recognised that these people were oppressed and enslaved. He did not seek permission to free them: the people were unable to give permission, and the demons certainly weren’t going to. And again, the effect was instant: he didn’t have to sign them up afterwards for rehab, training, punishment, or any other follow-up. In every case, it was a completed work.
This is bigger than a spectacular demon possession: it is about liberation. Paul talks about us being slaves to doing unjust things, and being freed by Jesus. Surely, we are all in the grip of harmful compulsions, addictions, and habits; surely we are all unable to drop something that is unfair, or unloving, or inconsiderate, or destructive.
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)
Here, Paul states that at the last trumpet, both the living and the dead will instantaneously be given life and changed.
It is the spirit that gives life (2 Corinthians 3:6) and if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwells in you (Romans 8:9). How could he fill us so much as to give us abundant life and bodies that fit in the New Creation yet somehow leave our mindset unchanged? To me, that simply doesn’t make sense.
Christ’s love compels us, since we have reached this conclusion: If One died for all, then all were dead. And He died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the One who died for them and was raised. (2 Corinthians 5:14-15)
Here, Paul is saying that all are being treated in the same way: there is no difference made. It is all about Jesus dying for all. All were dead, all will be made alive, all will no longer live for themselves.
He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death - even to death on a cross. For this reason God highly exalted Him and gave Him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow - of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth - and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. (Philippians 2:8-11)
All shall see him, all shall bow and declare Jesus is Lord (and no one can do that unless they have the Holy Spirit). That looks to me as though the job is already done.
I very much see that the response is necessary, we must come home, but it’s God that enables it - his grace. Coming come is the point. It’s a sure deal, it’s done and is being done.
Hi Ruth,
Nice to meet you.
Have a look at acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/s … ition.html This shows what happens when two or more waves pass through each other in opposite directions. The waves merge together for a time before separating again, with no change to either. This is called superposition, and is part of the weirdness of quantum mechanics. In QM, we can have the same electrons moving clockwise and anticlockwise round a loop simultaneously. I read recently of a QM tuning fork trillions of atoms in size that was vibrating and not vibrating, doing both things simultaneously.
Now suppose for a moment that we (by analogy) are the superposition of two natures moving in opposite directions, one towards God, the other away. For a very limited time, we are both good and evil simultaneously. We are 100% for God and 100% against God, simultaneously. If Christ was the superposition of God and man, we are the superposition of devil and man. (Who shall rescue me from this body of death? etc)
If there is any truth in this, our purification will involve the removal of the evil from the good, not the conversion of evil into good. ie. The devil will be torn from each of us and cast into the fire long prepared.
Your comment caught my eye (because it’s short! 
) I’ll read the rest of this thread later – I really will – but I’ve got to go somewhere just now.
But responding to your comment, I’m not sure it does come down to that and only that in the end. Does it really? But what if sin is something that needs to be cured, and the cure is in the chastisement? Such as a parent who wants to cure a child of, oh, stealing.
The stereotypical cure (and also the punishment) is to make the child return the stolen item to the injured party and make apologies/repentance/etc. This is a PAINFUL thing for a child to do (or that’s the hope of the parent.) It isn’t that the parent desires to cause the child pain, or even that she wants to punish the child for stealing, but primarily the motivation behind this sort of ‘punishment’ is to teach the child not to do that again because it is a bad thing to do. So the goal is to cure, but the cure is painful. If the cure WASN’T painful, it would lose its power as a cure. The pain IS the cure.
So to me, whether it takes a short time or a long time or some metaphysical non-time sort of ‘duration,’ we do need to be cured of our sin (and maybe that was your point – as I said, I haven’t read much else beyond the point of my own very early post), but we all do need to be cured.
I don’t think God does just wave some magic want and make us holy. If that would have worked, He might have done it a lot sooner – like at the beginning. It seems to me that God makes things and people in the way they need to be made. Just like building a house. There’s a certain progression that needs to happen. It’s no good putting in the carpet before you sheath the walls, and no good painting the drywall (sheet rock, wall board, cement board) before you tape and texture it.
Hope that makes sense (and that it’s not completely out of turn!)
Love, Cindy
Ruth,
Cindy reflects well my reluctance to insist on a dichotomy here.
I fully agree with you that “drawing all to himself” implies “changing our minds.” But to bolster “no conditions” on our part you cite many wonderful universalist texts and those showing God’s gracious initiative in creation, Jesus’ healings, etc. But I would assume that the most relevant texts for determinining whether there are “conditions” for salvation would be those that specifically address what is required to experience it.
E.g. Old Testament: “I have made known to them my laws, through which people will live, IF they obey them… He faithfully keeps my laws; that man is righteous; he will surely live.” (Ezek. 20:11; 18:5).
Paul: “Keeping God’s commands is what counts… Wrongdoers will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Cor. 7:19; 6:9) “God will repay everyone according to what they have done… To those who persist in Doing good, seeking glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life… It is those who Obey the law who will be declared righteous.” (Romans 2:6-13) “I have declared that they Must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.” (Acts 20:21)
Jesus: “Unless you repent, you will perish…Repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name.” (Lk. 13:5; 24:47). “If you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.” (Matt. 6:15) “What must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus replied, What is written in the law… Do this and you will live.” (Lk. 10:25-28; 16:17) “God will reward everyone according to what they have done… If you want to enter eternal life, keep God’s commandments… Unless your righteousness surpasses that of the teachers of the law, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt. 16:27; 19:16f; 5:17-20; Jn. 15:10).
It appears to me that texts like these are representative of hundreds of others that could be cited! You imply that I “have secretly changed the way Jesus deals with” the issue of salvation. But my perception is that you have been very selective with what he taught, and I’m curious if you think that warning texts like these are consistent with the formula that “no conditions” are taught, and if so, how?
Grace be with you,
Bob
Let’s continue with this example, which can be extrapolated to any other kind of bad behaviour.
This would only be useful if, in the world that child will live in, there was ownership of property, and envy and acquisitiveness were possible, and therefore theft was possible. There is nothing to be gained in painfully teaching someone not to do something that can never even be attempted. In the New Creation, there will be no concept of personal ownership, and no envy or acquisitiveness, because all will be longing to give everything – that will be our nature once we have been reborn (resurrected) as YHWH’s direct offspring; theft will be both impossible and unthinkable, so no one will need to be taught not to do it.
God is very emphatic about there being no more pain in the new creation. It is an enemy that is related to death. It causes people to do bad stuff to others. It damages people emotionally so they can’t give themselves to others so well, or maybe at all. It distracts the well-meaning so they have to attend to themselves rather than to others. Pain indicates damage; that’s what it’s for.
If pain were a tool YHWH thought useful, he would retain it in the new creation.
Here are some real-life examples:
I once worked closely with a man who had lost the end of a finger in an industrial accident. He told me, “When it first happened, it really hurt a lot, for a long time. But because of this I knew God loved me.” Thirty years ago, I was just puzzled by that statement (why would that make him believe God loved him?), but now I think it is like the wife of an abuser who says, “He only beats me up because he loves me.” No-one believes the woman’s husband loves her: why should they see any difference between that and a god who beats you up?
Another acquaintance used to argue that God might make us go through truly terrible experiences, but it was all for our own good. He likened it to the surgery of a girl who had had most of her innards temporarily removed to allow access for a radical operation. Of course, he failed to note that the patient in question would have been under general anaesthetic at the time and given the best available pain relief afterwards. When tragedy hit his own family, however, he became an atheist.
Some years ago, I myself suffered some serious injury to the tissues in my hands and arms: they became very weak and painful, and sometimes the pain was so bad I felt nauseous. It went on so long, I feared I was permanently disabled. Among other approaches, prescribed painkillers helped somewhat, but I was wary of getting rid of the pain altogether. One day I mentioned this to a doctor, saying that I didn’t want to completely turn off the message that would prevent me further harming myself. You see, I believed that the pain was protecting me by affecting my behaviour. The doctor’s answer surprised me: pain itself can damage and impede healing, I was told. It can set up a self-reinforcing feedback loop of pain-damage-pain. This changed my attitude towards pain, and I no longer valued it so highly.
Ruth,
An additional thought on your note to Cindy: You reflect well a traditional emphasis. But when you say God is emphatic about what will happen in the “new creation,” where is that term used for everyone’s existence beyond death. Isn’t it actually used by Paul of what believers can experience in this life? You seem to assert that because God does not think pain is useful, there will be “no pain” for anyone. It seems to me that the whole Biblical story suggests that God has “thought pain can be useful.” As to whether it may continue to have a use beyond death, (though my own paper herein on Gehenna questions it) haven’t most Christians read descriptions of God’s eschatological punishments and judgments as precisely efforts to warn about something painful? Do you assume that none of these warnings can apply to those who die in unrepentance and unbelief?
“Look! God’s dwelling place is now among humanity, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” (Revelation 21:3-5)
So I write them, too.
No death
No mourning
No crying
No pain
NONE. Not the slightest bit! Not at all! Not for anyone! Not ever again! NO EXCEPTIONS!!!
No first death. No second death. No fifth, eighteenth or hundred-and-thirty-fourth death. NO DEATH. All alive – no one dead.
No mourning or crying. No reason for sadness. No loss. No separation. No distress. No exclusion. No segregation. No injustice. No unfairness. No mental disorders such as depression.
No pain. No cause of pain. No injury. No damage. No oppression. No infliction of pain. No humiliation. No discomfort. No sickness, mental or physical. NO PAIN.
ALL THINGS NEW! No exceptions.
Why?
Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)
Insert anything else in here:
Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth,** neither unrepentance nor unbelief**, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Who does this apply to?
God revealed his hidden design to us, which is according to his goodwill and the plan that he intended to accomplish through his Son. This is what God planned for the climax of all times: to bring all things together in Christ, the things in heaven along with the things on earth. (Ephesians 1:9-10)
How does it work?
He Himself bore our sicknesses,
and He carried our pains …
He was pierced because of our transgressions,
crushed because of our iniquities;
punishment for our peace was on Him,
and we are healed by His wounds. (Isaiah 53:4-5)
We cannot take back our sicknesses, pains, sins, unjust acts. He won’t let us. They are now HIS.
What about whether God thinks the pain approach is useful - we know he tried it out, but it didn’t work:
People were burned by the intense heat. So they blasphemed the name of God… and they did not repent.
People gnawed their tongues because of their pain and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, yet they did not repent
A severe earthquake occurred like no other since man has been on the earth … Enormous hailstones, each weighing about 100 pounds,fell from the sky on people, and they blasphemed God for the plague of hail because that plague was extremely severe.
(Revelation 16, excerpts)
but now:
He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:8-11)
And what is the name of Jesus? What does it mean?
Salvation, healing, liberation, deliverance, help, safety, welfare, rescue. That is what all will bow to.
Ruth, I do admire your passionate defense of God’s ‘unconditional’ goodness! But I’m afraid my perception is that you only respond by assuming your minority interpretation of Revelation, and especially by citing even more texts about promises that simply apply to believers who are justified, or to a future point when as a universalist I would take it that all conditions have been achieved. Most of all, you seem to totally ignore every single counter text I presented, requesting your interpretation (or maybe you didn’t see them?). The old cliche is that one can prove anything one wants with the Bible. As I said before, I think where this applies is especially when we are “selective” with the Bible, and don’t work at being faithful to its’ whole narrative in total. I believe the Bible is coherent and any worthy interpretation must account for how it all fits.