Actually, you are right. And what should be the starting question (whether reading the Bible or Qur’an), is this: Are the descriptions of heaven and hell literal or metaphorical? Once we answer that question and are in agreement, then looking at other options (i.e. whether hell is temporary, the Hades holding cell for the unsaved - until the end of time, destroys those in it, is a form of exile, etc.), are easier to address and answer.
and so it should bother you…isn’t the Christian God far greater than that ?..than torturing human beings forever without relief, pity or mercy ?..endlessly, without purpose ?..that entire idea is monstrous.
how could it be a literal fire ?..even if this ‘eternal hell’ did exist ? (which it does not )…please read in Jeremiah where God says He hates molech …the god of burning fire , Molech had people burnt alive in fire…so, God hates molech cos he burns folks in fire but will burn folks in fire Himself ?..bahhh !..thats nonsense.
Whom are you addressing, Niel? You have qaz quoting me. I wouldn’t sanction an ECT viewpoint, even if I embraced that some folks are lost and apart from God forever. I would embrace some kind of exile, universal or annihilation viewpoint. But first, I think we should determine if Biblical descriptions of heaven and hell, are metaphorical or literal. I really don’t think there is any justification - either philosophically or theologically - to embrace ECT.
All these different views are interesting etc but why not just accept the fact that according to 2 Peter 3:9, God purposely wills to save ALL ?. Not to mention 1 Timothy 2:4 which also says God wants all to be saved.
Why not just let God have what He wants ?. He will get what He wants anyway, whether we like it or not. And He will have ALL to ultimately be saved.
I’m addressing Quaz but in my opinion the exile and annihilationist viewpoints do not line up with what the Bible teaches on eschatology whereas UR does.
I read the Qur’an. What a cancer Islam is. What bothers me is how Islamic so many Christians’ conceptions of hell are.
It’s really more like the opposite as Mohammed probably got many ideas from the OT like “Holy War” but I think he got his ideas about hell from Christian scriptures and taking symbolism quite literally.
It boils down to how you view the freewill/determinism dichotomy - philosophically and theologically. There have been heated debates here on this forum - regarding this, along with leading figures throughout history and now. If everyone agreed with your position (i.e. And He will have ALL to ultimately be saved.), then the RC, EC and Protestant churches - would be on board (much akin to the Republican party, ALL backing Trump).
All these different views are interesting etc but why not just accept the fact that according to 2 Peter 3:9, God purposely wills to save ALL ?. Not to mention 1 Timothy 2:4 which also says God wants all to be saved.
Why not just let God have what He wants ?. He will get what He wants anyway, whether we like it or not. And He will have ALL to ultimately be saved.
It boils down to how you view the freewill/determinism dichotomy - philosophically and theologically. There have been heated debates here on this forum - regarding this, along with leading figures throughout history and now.
People over complicate things…over-intellectualize…get themselves all twisted up…rather than simply trust what God has said. I’m not saying not to question but to gain peace of mind one must eventually settle on a Truth. Often that settling comes about thru much prayer and study.
The answer is simple. Work out what your default position on eschatology is and base all the rest on that.
My default position is that a) God wills all to be saved b) God ALWAYS gets what He wants …which leads to c) God WILL get what He wants and all, eventually, will be saved. Simple really.
Added to that is d) God said in Jeremiah that burning people in fire is an abomination to Him, therefore even if an eternal hell did exist, it could not possibly involve God burning human beings in fire for all eternity without end.
Add to that the fact that aionios/ aionion/ aion ‘eternity’ are mistranslated as ‘eternal’ in the KJ family of Bibles and ‘kolasis’ can mean ‘corrective chastisement’ as in Ezekial 44:12 in the Septuagint…not to mention all the verses stating ALL will be saved…the case for UR is so strong there’s no need to doubt it, in my opinion.
People over complicate things…over-intellectualize…get themselves all twisted up…rather than simply trust what God has said. I’m not saying not to question but to gain peace of mind one must eventually settle on a Truth. Often that settling comes about thru much prayer and study.
The answer is simple. Work out what your default position on eschatology is and base all the rest on that.
My default position is that a) God wills all to be saved b) God ALWAYS gets what He wants …which leads to c) God WILL get what He wants and all, eventually, will be saved. Simple really.
Added to that is d) God said in Jeremiah that burning people in fire is an abomination to Him, therefore even if an eternal hell did exist, it could not possibly involve God burning human beings in fire for all eternity without end.
Add to that the fact that aionios/ aionion/ aion ’ are mistranslated as ‘eternal’ in the KJ family of Bibles and ‘kolasis’ can mean ‘corrective chastisement’ as in Ezekial 44:12 in the Septuagint…not to mention all the verses stating ALL will be saved…the case for UR is so strong there’s no need to doubt it, in my opinion.
I respect your position, Neil. And you taking time to explain how you arrived at it. Just like I respect Muslims taking time, to explain their position. Or the person that believes in an eternity of heaven and hell experiences - here on this forum - explaining theirs eventually. Or the Baptist minister here (married to a universalist), explaining their position on ECT. I just have a different take on things, then either you, the eternal heaven/hell person, most actual universalists (here and elsewhere) and STP. But I respect and honor where you are coming from. But I don’t want to initiate a long and complicated debate on freewill/determinism, when this has been done before on this forum - and throughout history. Especially since this forum topic, is the dichotomy between the RC Church and someone wishing to be an RC Universalist.
The alternative views of hell and ECT, are well covered in Alternatives to Hell:
Dwarfs in the stable (i.e. exile)
Prisoners in heaven (i.e. universalism)
The second death
As far as Universalism goes, I hope and pray it is true. I believe in God’s capacity, but I lack faith in humanity. And I can’t theologically or philosophically, reconcile the free will elements. So i remain a hopeful universalist, as defined this way at Does Hopeful Universalism Sacrifice Divine Goodness?
Yowzah! I actually felt that on behalf of all my Muslim friends and relatives, none of whom is… uhh, cankerous at all (in spite of some lively disagreements I’ve had with them - just like with any other categorisable subset of people - over the years).
I’ve only read snippets of al-Qur’an and none of the mystics (unless Kahlil Gibran’s The Prophet comes close to this definition, even though the author himself wasn’t a Muslim but just influenced by Sufism), but I’m appreciating the little Arabic I’m picking up here and there, and how closely related it is to Hebrew, Aramaic and Swahili, and how quite a few English concepts are infused with Islamic concepts simply through the medium of language overlap. And a good deal of Muslim folklore is pretty kool artwork in its own right - case in point the Thousand and One Nights.
Indeed. Those Christians’ conceptions as well as Islam’s conceptions of “hell,” angelology, demonology, magic, and even of theology and “heaven,” are drawn from the same sources in early Jewish and Christian apocrypha like the Books of Enoch and the Life of Adam and Eve. The origin story of Satan from the Life of Adam and Eve, which has been quite influential in Christian demonology is practically identical in Islam. “Hell” in Islam is called Jahannam (from Hebrew “Gehennom”). Many of the very first Muslims had been Christians before and some were even Jews. Strikingly, Jesus is the central figure of what seems to be the most prominent tradition of Islamic eschatology, in which, at the end of the age, God will send Jesus (who here is also believed to have been born of a virgin by the power of God, and to have ascended into heaven) from heaven on a white horse with a lance in his hand with which he will slay al-Masīh ad-Dajjāl (“the False Messiah”; the Pseudokhristos) while… the followers of Jesus will slay an army of sinners and godless men before Jesus rules the world with justice and in peace for 40 years (which will be elongated to the equivalent of more than 80 of our years).
Probably the best theory of how Christ reaches members of other religions - such as Muslims - via the Inclusivist (Positions for the Lost) position, is the Quaker inner light.
the problem with the 'eternal hell ’ doctrine is its proponents seem ‘hellbent’ on judging and damning others…take Adam, a street preacher out of the great State of Florida…this guy truly believes in eternal fiery hell and its damaging his life and others…take a look at him blasting folks at a Florida beach…btw, how do you make your Youtube videos open up like that ?..please tell me !.