How do you envisage postmortem punishment?


#1

Most people here are not ultra-universalists. That is, they believe in postmortem punishment. So what do you envisage taking place? People being burned with fire until they say they’re sorry?


Ultra universalism
#2

No such thing… There are no scriptures that facilitate that. Most of scripture was pertaining to the Israelites, and we ( :smiley: )were recipients of the promise.


#3

How long can “free will” resist God? It will be as long & painful as Love Omnipotent needs it to be, specially suited to each unique individual.

I’ll just refer to some Scripture passages:

It’s called second death. The devil & others in it are said to be “tormented” into the “ages of the ages” (Rev.20:10-15).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into AIONIAN fire, prepared for the devil and his angels” (Mt.25:41)

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.” (Rev.2:11)


#4

qaz, I don’t believe in post-mortem punishment (if by “punishment” you refer to penalty). I believe in post-mortem correction.

A good human father’s discipline of his son may be unpleasant for the son, but it is intended to correct him. A good father is not going to beat his son to a pulp or chain him to a bonfire. Some will need more severe correction than others. But God whose very ESSENCE is love (the apostle John stated twice in First John that God IS love) will not provide any more discomfort that is absolutely necessary. Indeed, I think post-mortem correction will involve more that discomfort. I think God will send special individuals (whether angels or his mature children, I do not know) who will instruct the rebels and urge them to repent and submit to the authority of God.


#5

So what do you picture taking place? People being literally burned by fire?


#6

So do you picture the punishment being something like a classroom setting?


#7

Don where does it indicate post mortem?


#8

Judging by the horrific things Love Omnipotent allows in this world, i wouldn’t rule out the punishment to come being equally or more horrible. For example, Jesus references to weeping & gnashing of teeth.

What does it mean that God “can” ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with wicked human beings.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20). Similarly:

3 Although I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit, and I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Cor.5:3-5)

If Satan & demons are there in the LOF to possess people, just casting them into the LOF could result in people being psychologically destroyed or ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine. I’m sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Otherwise why would the scriptures speaks of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostasized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

Benny Hinn gospel messages:
youtube.com/watch?v=u4U5_b4Y_Qo
Total surrender [message to young people]:
youtube.com/watch?v=_eJj8N9BqxU


#9

Paul said… “The wages (penalty) of sin is death” — not ECT, not annihilation, not any form of purgatory, just death. We all die… so in that sense we all pay for the sins of life in this life… in death. Jesus died that death might not separate humanity from God beyond this life, and that union be experienced as something vital NOW.

IF there is yet still more penalty and price to pay in the next life for the sins of this life then WHAT was/is “death” all about?


#10

IF there is yet still more penalty and price to pay in the next life for the sins of this life then WHAT was/is “death” all about?

Death is about the penalty for sin but dying doesn’t create reconciliation between man and God. It seems there is more to do , probably as Paidion said a process of correction. We can speculate about this process, such as it took Paul less then a minute to convert when he saw the risen Lord but there is no info on details about this.


#11

Well, it was Jesus’ dying that created reconciliation between man and God, not ours.


#12

steve7150 wrote:
Death is about the penalty for sin but dying doesn’t create reconciliation between man and God.

Well, it was Jesus’ dying that created reconciliation between man and God, not ours.

Yes but we still have to accept this free gift from Jesus at least as i understand it.


#13

I picture the setting more like that of a hockey game.
I understand the word “punishment” to refer to penalty. Go against the rules and you receive a penalty.
God doesn’t penalize people. Penalties don’t help those who receive them. The main effect on them seems to be that they are more careful not to get caught next time. God, out of love corrects people so that they will become better persons. God wants righteousness. He is not interested in simply “making them pay.”


#14

AFTER man’s death comes judgment. You couldn’t get much more post mortem than that!

And in John 5:28,29, Jesus is recorded as saying:

If people will come out of their graves, that clearly will happen post mortem. The righteous will enter life, and the unrighteous will face judgment. However, evangelical universalists believe that all will eventually be saved. So doesn’t that mean that those who face judgment will be corrected? And since they will have already died, won’t that correction HAVE TO BE post mortem?

However, I agree that God also corrects his people in this life.


#15

If God is love then He must hate evil and this is indeed what the scriptures teach. The torment in the lake of fire lasts trillions upon trillions of years (ages of ages) until the wicked are reduced to ashes. But like the Phoenix bird they will be resurrected or restored. This is what we see with the destruction of the heavens and earth by fire yet there will be a new heavens and earth.

This fire is the same fire that turned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes

Just as the Heavens and earth undergo a fiery judgment of destruction under God’s wrath so do the ungodly. But like Sodom and the Heavens and Earth the ungodly will be made new after destruction.


#16

So steve, as you understand it… where exactly do you get that belief from?


#17

There was NO remaking of Sodom… and Jude who you quote makes that plain :open_mouth:


#18

Ezekiel 16:53 53"'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,


#19

Seriously Michael :question: :question: Said “I will restore” or “I will bring back their captives” speaks to and of the people NOT literal Sodom, i.e., your so-called re-making.


#20

I’m confused. You say you picture postmortem correction like a hockey game (penalty box?), and then say postmortem punishment isn’t a penalty. I hope I don’t come off as rude, but it’d be helpful if you stopped making the semantic distinction between punishment and correction whereby you claim you don’t believe in postmortem punishment. Put simply, postmortem correction is punishment. Saying it’s not just makes things more confusing than they have to be. I’m wondering how you picture such punishment taking place. Are the sinners sitting in a classroom receiving instruction on proper behavior?