The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How does Jesus's resurrection make people righteous?


Bob, I think you misinterpret what John is saying.

I haven’t been avoiding anything. in fact I’ve stated my view many times over. I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about my answers to the verses under discussion.

There are a lot of “gods” of the world that people glorify(worship) other than the one true God; power, fame, riches, material objects, are but a few examples. Many glorify the "kings and queens " of the world, drunk rock stars who throw TV’s out the window, actors and actresses, and on and on. When you neither glorify God as the first commandment says, nor honor and respect the man of God; then no, the Spirit is NOT with you.

When the Spirit departs as a result of your continual sin, and your life falls to pieces then you are more willing to open your eyes and ears to the truth.

Since God is Spirit and there was NO Spirit given prior to Jesus, as you keep insisting, then this means the Spirit of God did not exist in this world before that time; there was no love, forgiveness, kindness, truth, justice, honesty, joy, peace etc. etc.

Meanwhile, you have not addressed anything that I have mentioned.
Who was telling Abraham to leave the false gods of the world behind and go to establish a place for Him? Was it the Spirit of God or not?
When the Pharaoh says about Joseph “Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?” Was the Spirit of God in Joseph or not?
When the Israelites came up out of Egypt, they were all baptized in the cloud and in the sea. What is the cloud that they were baptized in? Was it the Spirit of God or not?
When Samuel tells the Israelites to direct their hearts to the Lord and serve him alone, who are they supposed to be directing their hearts towards and serving ? Is it the Spirit of God or not?
“Return to Me and I will return to you.” What does this verse mean to you? Who are these people supposed to be retuning to and who is returning to them? Is it the Spirit of God or not?
When Moses says, “The word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart that you should obey it.” What “word” is he talking about and where does this word come from?

Paidion, If you are living in sin, are you righteous? Do people still live in sin today and how does Jesus’ death make them righteous?


“…you keep insisting, then this means the Spirit of God did not exist in this world before that time; there was no love, forgiveness, kindness, truth, justice, honesty, joy, peace etc. etc. You have not addressed anything I have mentioned.”

Bob’s reply: No!! I’ve repeatedly said that I don’t dispute what you’ve mentioned, or the texts you’ve cited, and I again affirmed the Spirit’s work before Christ, your questions about Abraham, etc, but you seem unable to recognize anything that I’ve actually explained.

But what’s relevant to our difference is that you again avoid expositing Jesus’ actual words. Thus I, and apparently everyone else here, have no idea how you explain the texts at issue about the difference that he asserts his glorification will make.


I really need to stop reading, the Patheos Catholic and Evangelical newsletters. They can be MORE radical, then some of the views expressed here - on the forum.

Take, for example - this one in the Catholic newsletter:

My God. Then the only thing, dividing the RC and EO churches - is this:

Right now the biggest issue dividing the two Churches is how we understand the primacy of Peter and Rome. All agree that the Pope has a certain primacy over other bishops, but what primacy is a sticking point.

Then even MORE radical, is this Evangelical article:

So what is the controversy about?

In a recent sermon, Andy Stanley, the Senior Pastor of North Point Community Church in Georgia, preached that Christians need to “unhitch” the Old Testament from their faith.

Here’s a video of that sermon

Too bad he wasn’t on this forum thread. It would make an INTERESTING conversation, between him and LLC.

And the article author explores 3 points:

  1. Is his perspective on the Old Testament a form of Marcionism?

  2. He throws the baby out with the bathwater

  3. He sets up an unnecessary binary

Of course, I try to introduce LESS CONTROVERSIAL, theological ideas. Like the Zombie Apocalypse, is the most probable - end times, tribulation model. :wink:

And here’s a plot summary - from the prophesy given, in the YouTube video:

Flesh eating demons that will enter and take over the corpses of the heathen. This coming horror which will take place on this earth during the Great Tribulation, will result in these Zombies seeking to bite and eat the flesh of human beings. Those that are not saved and covered with the Blood of YAHUSHUA ha MASHIACH at that time, and have received the Mark of the Beast and worship the Beast and his image, when they will be bitten these demons will enter them and take them over also, thus they will become Zombies themselves. YAHUSHUA speaks to HIS own in this Prophecy, that those that are HIS and covered with HIS Blood CANNOT be affected by this. HE speaks to HIS Children and speaks of the Only Weapon we have against these Zombies, and that is the Power of the Cross. The Cross of Calvary where YAHUSHUA shed HIS Innocent Precious Blood for our sins. YAHUSHUA tells us in this Prophecy, that the ones who will be on this earth to see this and to fight the kingdom of darkness, must take a wooden stick which stands symbolic for the Cross of Calvary, and anoint that wooden stick which represents the Anointing of the RUACH ha KODESH (Holy Spirit) and the Blood of YAHUSHUA, and to hit the Zombies with that anointed stick in their necks in the Name and Authority of YAHUSHUA ha MASHIACH. This is the only way to stand against and destroy the flesh eating demons from the bottomless pit, through the Power in the Name and Blood of YAHUSHUA ha MASHIACH at Calvary’s Cross.

See How will you get the Mark of the Beast?




Salvation or being made righteous is a process that continues throughout our lives. But it’s a process that will some day be completed. The apostle Paul wrote:

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)

Paul also wrote to Titus about the enabling grace working this righteousness in Christ’s disciples:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

It is through the death of Christ that this enabling grace of God was provided. I don’t know the logistics of it, and so I cannot tell you HOW Christ’s death makes His people righteous, but Paul in the Titus passage clearly states it does—that the grace of God has appeared to PURIFY for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works, that it "redeems us from all lawlessness, and that it "trains us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives…


Yes, the Spirit of God does make a difference in our lives when we glorify Him by “living in the Spirit”; that is to love God with all your heart ,mind and soul and obey His commands. This not only makes a difference in our own lives, but it touches the lives of the people around us as well. Honoring and following those who honor and speak the truth of the one true God is also honoring God, as they are all considered one in the Spirit. As Jesus said in John 6:63, "The words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life.
As Isaiah says in 58:6-14 “Is this not the fast that I have chosen, to loose the bond of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and that you bring to your house the poor who are cast out; when you see the naked, that you cover him and not hide yourself from your own flesh? Then your light shall break forth like the morning, your healing shall spring forth speedily, and your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard. Then you shall call and the Lord will answer; you shall cry and He will say ‘Here I am.’ If you take away the yoke from your midst, the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness, if you extend your soul to the hungry and satisfy the afflicted soul, then your light shall dawn in the darkness, and your darkness shall be as noonday. The Lord will guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and strengthen your bones; you shall be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail. Those from among you shall build the old waste places; you shall raise up the foundations of many generations; and you shall be called the Repairer of the Breach, the Restorer of the Streets to Dwell In. If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words, then you shall delight yourself in the Lord; and I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.”


I feel like I keep being so late to the party the threads are too big for me to read in their entirety, well I mean… 613 responses… uhhhh… nope :wink: lol but I’ll tell you what I think, it’s based on… things I deeply believe are personal holy spirit revelations, but understand are unusual and I’ve never heard anyone else say. So if it resonates, pray about it, if not, go where the spirit leads you.

A few years ago I was pondering the same thing. Why did Jesus have to die? If faith saved the old testament characters then what did Jesus actually accomplish? I think the answer is more complicated than we can imagine, and even has to get a little “new agey” to be adequately answered.

But I feel like… everything we do creates energy. This energy has to go somewhere. The sacrificial system of the old testament was a way of dealing with sin energy. It’s like we were creating dark spiritual pockets and the only way to do away with them (for a reason I can’t explain) was to make blood sacrifices. A simplified way of explaining it would be that these vibrational “black holes” can only be appeased by death, and thus if you didn’t want that death to be YOU you had to kill something on your behalf. Sin brings death, don’t understand why, but that’s what the bible states.

On top of that, we could never TRULY be righteous, God “credited faith AS righteousness” but that doesn’t mean the old testament characters were truly righteous. So everyone in the old testament was in a loop of living by faith and the law, (which must have been hard as hell) sinning, being separated from God, repenting, sacrificing an animal, having their connection restored, until they sinned again. I get this feeling that while capable of communicating with and knowing God they were not capable of being “one” with Him.

Then there’s the priests. They had to go through all these rituals to be able to intercede for the Israelites, and if they weren’t pure when entering the temple? They were dead. God seems to be having a literal hard time being near humans and to me it doesn’t sound like it’s cause he’s “so angry He’s choosing to kill them” but more like some sort of spiritual laws. He WANTS to be near them, but just like light cancels darkness, His holiness destroys them if they aren’t pure enough to stand it.

This means God had to keep just choosing special people and everyone else had to go through the priests. You couldn’t just CHOOSE to talk to God yourself, you had to go through someone He annointed, then THEY had to purify themselves and hope they could enter the temple without dying. So old testament times were like, very estranged relations between God and man, and no one could just happily stay close to Him without rigorous discipline and sacrifices and being fortunate enough to have that DNA that gets “chosen”.

Somehow Jesus, living a perfect life, fulfilling all of God’s law, fulfilling His prophecies, building up all that perfect “karma” if you will (might be a hindu word but it’s probably still a real concept) made it so that His death released something into the universe. It was some kind of energy exchange, based upon His perfect intentions and perfect life and it satisfied the hunger of sin.

This made it so now ordinary people without any help from a priest, could just ask for forgiveness, kill nothing, and not only have an audience with God, but the very same status as Jesus Himself! But I think it goes deeper. I don’t think there’s anything God does that doesn’t wind up having infinite reasons. Every decision He makes seems to accomplish like a thousand different things.

I think He did something totally radical. Like He had all this anger, “wrath” as the bible calls it, and it couldn’t be quenched. Just like when someone has hurt you over and over and over and you can’t get over it, your emotions are ready to KILL THEM. I think He literally used Jesus to manipulate His own emotions.

Imagine a man robs you, takes all your stuff, and kills your dog. You are VERY angry, and you want retribution. You are getting ready to press charges. But now imagine you also have a good hearted son who is the delight of your whole life, he’s a good boy, he’s your pride and joy, and through no fault of his own he’s in jail for a crime he didn’t commit and being slandered EVERYWHERE. I mean people just HATE your son for no reason, it hurts you more than anything.

So you are about to press charges against this criminal who robbed you and killed your dog, and then you find out that he actually has a website all about your son! He’s one of the few that actually believes your son is innocent and good, and he spreads this wherever he goes! In spite of the fact that this person deserves punishment and has not paid the price he deserves, you suddenly just can’t bring yourself to punish him. He loves your son, it melts away the anger, and you can just say “you know what, we can let bygones be bygones, thank you for defending my son that’s all that matters now…”

I think that is another element to this ingenious thing God has done. But I doubt it stops there, I’m sure in eternity we will continue to find out more and more genius reasons for the cross. I know this isn’t coming from any famous church leaders or anything, it’s just one guy but… I dunno… when I get these random revelations out of nowhere, they feel prophetic, so whether or not you believe me, I do, and time will tell if I’m right or wrong.

Oh right, not quite done. I believe in vibrations, everything is energy. Well something appears to be coming that’s going to plunge the world into a LOW LOW LOW vibration, a DARKNESS if you will. I think the only things that will be able to survive this darkness are gonna have to be vibrating and at a very high love frequency. And that’s where Jesus REALLY saves. I think that when this event happens, only those with a saving love for Jesus, vibrating with the utmost love from Him (which you can’t get elsewhere because Jesus is REAL, he blesses and multiplies the love you give Him) are gonna be able to withstand this event. Everyone else is gonna be in for a horrible surprise (not an eternal one mind you, but one they sure as hell don’t wanna go through!) and I think that is yet another way His sacrifice saves us. The scriptures make it so that if you truly study them and research their place in history you WILL become convinced this actually happened, Jesus really fulfilled these prophecies, really lived, and really rose from the dead, God went to great lengths to prove is so you could have REAL belief should you choose to REALLY look at it. That real belief turns to real love, that real love gets really reciprocated, this creates the “golden cord” which will keep you from falling into the pit of darkness the rest of the world is going to be plunged into.

I don’t believe this is some weird thing God did for funzies, this universe runs by spiritual laws and God seems to be ingeniously manipulating them through His Son.

One man’s opinion, but I think you gotta admit it makes sense, at least on paper :wink:


[quote=“LLC, post:615, topic:6381, full:true”]

LLC: “Yes, the Spirit of God does make a difference in our lives when we glorify Him by “living in the Spirit”; that is to love God with all your heart…”

LLC, I repeat: the texts you dodge say nothing about the difference made on our end. The difference they declare is that the Spirit is not available in the way Jesus sends him until his death and glorification. You appear oblivious to how much you refuse to exposit his words.


Paul wrote that he was not perfect (Philippians 3:12). Does that mean he was not righteous? What do you think of Paul’s statement?


Think ‘maturity’


Actually, SOME of what LLC says makes sense. I believe that certain Old Testament prophets - lived a righteous life. At the same time, in the Americas…the Native Americans produced Holy People… who become medicine people and holy people…were also pious. And had visions from God, on how to live a righteous life. Just as Rishis in India could. But NOT everyone could - then or now. And God in the Old Testament, got p*s$ed off - with the people of Israel - on MANY occasions.

So while a few lived pious lives - the vast majority did not. Both inside and outside of Israel. Which is why we need Christ. For ALL of humanity.

We can ponder questions, like How does Jesus’s resurrection make people righteous?. Just pick one or two, and get one with it. For me, the Eastern Orthodox answer of Theosis…What we can become because of Christ…- makes the most sense to me. And we can get this from Protestant figures, like Katie Souza and Joel Osteen. I figure God will fill in the blanks, when I finally meet him.


Yes, indeed. But if you think about it, didn’t Jesus say that he didn’t come to call the righteous, but the unrighteous to repentance? Of course if you adopt the attitude that no one was righteous (including Joseph, Job, etc…) then you can pretend that Jesus meant “I have not called the self-righteous, but the unrighteous” but that doesn’t make sense. Still, that is what mainstream Christianity teaches and it just seems plain wrong. Or, of course, if we believe that people could be righteous and that some in fact were, then we don’t have to twist Jesus words and make them say something they don’t.


Yes it does. The verse under discussion says, “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit…”
As I mentioned before, Jesus says in John 6:63 “The words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life.” John 5:23 “Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly I tell you whoever hears My word and believes Him ( the Spirit of God) who sent Me has eternal life…”

Honor means to glorify, respect, follow, heed, obey etc.

Those who followed and obeyed the words of the true prophets, as they spoke the SAME words, would have received the Spirit as well. As Isaiah says in chapter 58:6-14, obey His words and “the Lord will guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and strengthen your bones; you shall be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water whose waters do not fail.”

The Bible says, God is love, and whoever abides in love, God abides in him. Also, when two or more are gathered in love, there God will be in the midst of them. Again, what you are suggesting is that prior to Jesus, no one ever loved one another.

Deut. 32:9 " For the Lord’s portion is His people; Jacob is the place of His inheritance." ; verse 12 “He made him ride in the heights of the earth.” They must have been dwelling in the Spirit, as Isaiah says, in order for this to occur.
Ezekiel 16:7 " I made you thrive like a plant in the field; and you grew, matured, and became very beautiful …verse 8 “When I passed by you again and looked upon you, indeed your time was the time of love…” It sounds to me like these people were “living in the Spirit.”

A.G. I agree.

HFPZ, I believe the Spirit of God was always available to all of humanity. From what I understand He is omnipresent.


I see nothing in that statement, that I would disagree with.

What amuses me, is that God always got ticked up , and justifiably so…when folks make other gods - besides him. And there is a herd - of conflicting gods and goddesses. The ancients iin Isreal had theirs…then other cultures had their own, like the Hindus, Greeks, Vikings, etc.

And we have ours today…Money, sex, power, etc.


[quote=“LLC, post:622, topic:6381, full:true”]

LLC: "Yes it does. The verse under discussion says, “He who believes in Me…”

LLC, No it’s not! I repeatedly quoted the relevant verses and put the language you dodged in bold, but you insist on pointing to other verses I don’t deny, apparently oblivious to the fact that in reams of response, you never engage the words I actually cite or address what was actually said to you.


The same exact ones that existed back in those days… Differing forms, maybe, but ultimately the same thing.



I totally agree with what HFPZ and AG say here

We are told to be of sound mind. When reading the Bible this means that we use common sense in it’s interpretation. However, some choose to stick their noses in the books and nitpick at every little word that’s said. This is how you end up with crazy notions like not being able to push an elevator button on the Sabbath because it’s considered work. Or, you can’t turn on a light switch because the Bible says not to light a fire on the Sabbath. Sorry, but the Spirit of God has always existed, and has been working in peoples’ hearts since the day He created man.

If the criminal actually loved the son then he would not have robbed him and killed his dog. Maybe this son was a hard working guy who earned minimum wage and needed the money that was stolen to make his house payment or get a gift for his daughter’s birthday etc.etc. Maybe that dog was his child’s best friend and now is heart broken.
I believe all are God’s children as Jesus says, 'Whoever does it to the least of these, does it to Me." Life is a gift from God and we all have certain rights to it. This is why there are laws and set boundaries. We can’t just walk around trampling on others and doing whatever it is we feel like doing. Sometimes we need to reap what we sow in order to make a change.


If some PhD psychology or theology professor, conducted a psychology experiment with the Bible…and asked students to use “common sense”, in interpreting a particular passage…I’ll bet you anything (in virtual play currency), that “common sense” would yield - a variety of interpretations. :slight_smile:

And what does the bible say about “common sense”? Well, according to the Got Questions site at What does the Bible say about common sense?…It’s only discussed briefly in Proverbs. And if we check Thesaurus - sound mind, I don’t see “common sense” as a synonym.


Year ago, I was assigned to teach religious education in an elementary school. I asked a grade 8 class what faith is. One pupil raised his hand and offered the following definition: “Faith is believing in something that you KNOW is not true.”


where does that leave us?


One man’s ‘common sense’ is another man’s absurdity. If we start with scientism - only those things that can be proven by scientific method, and are repeatable, are true knowledge - well then of course we have already unilaterally eliminated all the things that make us most human.
Acknowledging the true God, Father of our Lord, we can see a much richer and broader slice of reality.